Leopard Kung Fu

clfsean

Senior Master
MT Mentor
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jun 15, 2004
Messages
3,687
Reaction score
400
Location
Metropolitan Tokyo
Yeah I think In general I've seen a few leopard strikes to the bicep the other i heard was called cup choy. Seems to be a partially closed fist uses in a Slapping like motion. Let me know how it goes! I'd say it's most likely best used in short range
Errrr .... in what context did you hear of this? From where/what style? Being used in application how?
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,407
Reaction score
4,786
Yeah I think In general I've seen a few leopard strikes to the bicep the other i heard was called cup choy. Seems to be a partially closed fist uses in a Slapping like motion. Let me know how it goes! I'd say it's most likely best used in short range
I'm not sure if that punch is the same as cup choy.
Errrr .... in what context did you hear of this? From where/what style? Being used in application how?
I was thinking of the same thing but wasn't sure what type of slap was being described. I also couldn't think of when I use a cub choy with a partially closed fist, unless that description is describing how the thumb doesn't wrap around the fist.
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
Errrr .... in what context did you hear of this? From where/what style? Being used in application how?
It was a long time ago but an instructor who did wing chun and had some 5 animal experience. The application is pretty much the video I posted just against the inner bicep and at short range
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
Yeah I think In general I've seen a few leopard strikes to the bicep the other i heard was called cup choy. Seems to be a partially closed fist uses in a Slapping like motion. Let me know how it goes! I'd say it's most likely best used in short range
There are actually two similar sounding elements in southern CMA, "cup choi", "chop choi".

Using CLF as an example: here's the Leopard strike through the sleeve again to the floating rib, as well as the "slapping strike" you mentioned.

Though, neither one of these needs to use the actual Leopard paw shaped fist (baoquan), they could use a standard fist, Phoenix Eye fist, etc. The first one is a driving strike into the sensitive part of the ribs (Metal element, splitting through like a wedge, and note he's actually guarding his face like a smart person), the second is a strike (usually to the face) with the "heart" of the fist (ie the flat inside, and similar to many of the Five Element strikes like Earth, Water, Gold, etc).

1665174177594.png

1665174193346.png


From another POV, the Lama Fist from Hop Gar, there's the baoquan again.

1665174575103.png
 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
Another CLF "Chop Choy", through the sleeve, this time with a Bao shaped fist. Same idea. Also exists in Hung Ga Kuen, Hop Ga, and I'm pretty sure Jow Ga too.

Pretty standard in Leopard/Metal styles that I've seen. Looking through some old books/posters now to spot some old illustrations of Leopard.

1665174722187.png
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
I'm not sure if that punch is the same as cup choy.

I was thinking of the same thing but wasn't sure what type of slap was being described. I also couldn't think of when I use a cub choy with a partially closed fist, unless that description is describing how the thumb doesn't wrap around the fist.
I could have sworn there was Leopard/Metal stuff in Ron Wheeler's Jow Ga book. I'll have to dig it up...it's buried :D
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
I'm not sure if that punch is the same as cup choy.

I was thinking of the same thing but wasn't sure what type of slap was being described. I also couldn't think of when I use a cub choy with a partially closed fist, unless that description is describing how the thumb doesn't wrap around the fist.
Sort of like a tiger claw. I've seen cup choy as in a partially closed fist almost similar to leopard but obviously more closed. But yeah the thumb doesn't wrap around it.

I saw an application of cup choy striking the bicep so I compared it to that. The video I posted sort of gives the idea of the strike its more of a "slicing" action actually
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
There are actually two similar sounding elements in southern CMA, "cup choi", "chop choi".

Using CLF as an example: here's the Leopard strike through the sleeve again to the floating rib, as well as the "slapping strike" you mentioned.

Though, neither one of these needs to use the actual Leopard paw shaped fist (baoquan), they could use a standard fist, Phoenix Eye fist, etc. The first one is a driving strike into the sensitive part of the ribs (Metal element, splitting through like a wedge, and note he's actually guarding his face like a smart person), the second is a strike (usually to the face) with the "heart" of the fist (ie the flat inside, and similar to many of the Five Element strikes like Earth, Water, Gold, etc).

View attachment 29050
View attachment 29051

From another POV, the Lama Fist from Hop Gar, there's the baoquan again.

View attachment 29052
The Lama fist looks cool! It reminds me of something called the sun fist. Although the sun fist was vertical and kept the thumb tucked like most are use to. But the relaxed two smaller fingers applies
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
I could have sworn there was Leopard/Metal stuff in Ron Wheeler's Jow Ga book. I'll have to dig it up...it's buried :D
That would be great if you can post it! Both are on my list of learning more of at the moment haha
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
Another CLF "Chop Choy", through the sleeve, this time with a Bao shaped fist. Same idea. Also exists in Hung Ga Kuen, Hop Ga, and I'm pretty sure Jow Ga too.

Pretty standard in Leopard/Metal styles that I've seen. Looking through some old books/posters now to spot some old illustrations of Leopard.

View attachment 29053
That's cool while I've only seen it come from CLF it always made more sense as a leopard type technique.

Awesome! Hopefully we can add more to this thread.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
10,941
Reaction score
4,917
Location
New York
Yeah I think In general I've seen a few leopard strikes to the bicep the other i heard was called cup choy. Seems to be a partially closed fist uses in a Slapping like motion. Let me know how it goes! I'd say it's most likely best used in short range
I ended up surprise teaching today, which threw me off and made me forget to try this out. I'll give it a go monday and let you know, if I remember.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
The Lama fist looks cool! It reminds me of something called the sun fist. Although the sun fist was vertical and kept the thumb tucked like most are use to. But the relaxed two smaller fingers applies
Basically.

The sun (ri/yat) fist had a big influence on CMA. It's known as Radical 72. It's a scorcher.
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
Basically.

The sun (ri/yat) fist had a big influence on CMA. It's known as Radical 72. It's a scorcher.
That makes sense. It seems like a common technique used. It looks like the main difference is just the sun fist is done vertical and the Lama Fist is done horizontal. Although I think with the sun fist your meant to use all 4 knuckles.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,405
Reaction score
1,183
That makes sense. It seems like a common technique used. It looks like the main difference is just the sun fist is done vertical and the Lama Fist is done horizontal. Although I think with the sun fist your meant to use all 4 knuckles.
The Sun character fist strikes are usually done flat, with the full face of the vertical fist. That's how you'll see it done in Wing Chun forms (facing forward), or southern family styles typically facing sideways, but also flat face of the fist.

The Lama fist in that photo is more like the Leopard fist, you are actually striking with the ridge formed by the second knuckles, but the key is how the thumb is pressing into the index finger.

You can try Leopard shaped fist without that thumb press (see Bucksam Kong photo above, he's not), but you'll notice a much more compact, stable fist if you do.

Simple test, lightly strike a heavy bag or medicine ball with each type. The correct Leopard/Lama fist shape will feel the sturdiest, and the picture from the Wiki using the FLAT face of the knuckles has no stability at all.

Strong hands matter too. Leopard shaped fist gets easier to maintain and strike through as your grip strength improves.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,407
Reaction score
4,786
The Lama fist looks cool! It reminds me of something called the sun fist. Although the sun fist was vertical and kept the thumb tucked like most are use to. But the relaxed two smaller fingers applies
The thumb has to be placed like that in order to keep it from being smashed upon impact. It locks the fingers and stabilizes the thumb by pressing the thumb into that first finger.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
12,407
Reaction score
4,786
It looks like the main difference is just the sun fist is done vertical and the Lama Fist is done horizontal.
This fist is the same as the Jow Ga fist. It can be at any angle. In terms of fist formation, it allows the practitioner to do a wide range of fist strikes without having to adjust the fingers much. Some times I'll rotate it like a boxers jab, other time it comes in at an angle.
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
The Sun character fist strikes are usually done flat, with the full face of the vertical fist. That's how you'll see it done in Wing Chun forms (facing forward), or southern family styles typically facing sideways, but also flat face of the fist.

The Lama fist in that photo is more like the Leopard fist, you are actually striking with the ridge formed by the second knuckles, but the key is how the thumb is pressing into the index finger.

You can try Leopard shaped fist without that thumb press (see Bucksam Kong photo above, he's not), but you'll notice a much more compact, stable fist if you do.

Simple test, lightly strike a heavy bag or medicine ball with each type. The correct Leopard/Lama fist shape will feel the sturdiest, and the picture from the Wiki using the FLAT face of the knuckles has no stability at all.

Strong hands matter too. Leopard shaped fist gets easier to maintain and strike through as your grip strength improves.
Yeah that makes alot of sense. I was taught a rising and setting sun fist in Wing Chun basically using either strictly the top or bottom knuckles. I use to use the horizontal fist because of the twisting motion but now I use alot more vertical fists cause of the Wing Chun training.

Oh okay I thought it was pretty much a normal fist but with the last two just slightly loose so basically a horizontal sun fist I suppose haha. So I assumed it was the typical knuckles used in a strike not the second one like leopard.

That makes alot of sense with the leopard and I agree 100% with having more tough hands. Actually since I mainly related the Leopard to Metal and with metal we do Iron body it goes all together basically. I did relate the grip strength more so with monkey than leopard but obviously wouldn't neglect it.

I'll give it a shot! Its always fun testing out new techniques or different ways of using them.
 
OP
C

CMyers0323

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2022
Messages
172
Reaction score
42
The thumb has to be placed like that in order to keep it from being smashed upon impact. It locks the fingers and stabilizes the thumb by pressing the thumb into that first finger.
That make sense from the image it doesn't look tucked like a normal fist so is it more on the side of the hand than wrapped under like a typical jab is?
 
Top