learning multiple styles

[Wing Woo Gar]

Just trying to understand what we are discussing here. During our daily MA training, if you

- stand in front of a heavy bag and throw 200 punches on that heavy bag, or
- walk on the beach and throw 200 kicks along with your walking,

Which part of both training have to do with internal development of art and science?

Is there any "internal development of art and science" in this video? Or is that something so abstract that cannot be described?

Discipline and perseverance are not necessarily something that can be seen. Do you suggest that your personal character was not improved through the discipline and perseverance that training as hard as you did requires? How can I know the difference it made in you if I didn’t see you before you trained? If I can’t see it, isn’t it internal development?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you suggest that your personal character was not improved through the discipline and perseverance that training as hard as you did requires?

"Wu De - 侠 Xia" is to help others (help good to fight evil). Internal development only deals with oneself. There are different things.

MA training can give one more confidence, courage, and patient and that's for sure. But whether MA training can make a bad person to become a good person, there is no prove there.

There were many bad MA guys in the ancient history. 吕布 Lu Bu is a good example. He was good in MA. But he was a bad person. He had betrayed many people who trusted him. What happened to his "internal development"?

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[Kung Fu Wang]

In this forum, people like to talk about Wu De and self-cultivation. People don't want to talk about "侠 Xia - help good to fight against evil".

This reminds me in Buddhism,

1. One branch is called "小乘 Theravada - "Emphasizes individual liberation, the pursuit of Arhatship, and personal cultivation."

2. Another branch is called "大乘 Mahayana - "Emphasizes the liberation of all beings; practitioners not only seek their own emancipation but also assist others in attaining it."

IMO, 1 < 2.

 

[Fungus]

Just trying to understand what we are discussing here. During our daily MA training, if you

- stand in front of a heavy bag and throw 200 punches on that heavy bag, or
- walk on the beach and throw 200 kicks along with your walking,

Which part of both training have to do with internal development of art and science?

Is there any "internal development of art and science" in this video? Or is that something so abstract that cannot be described?

Internal development is not something that someone else can easily visually see from watching you from the outside. It is not about what happens in the environment, but what happens in your head. The head of the guy in the video is to be a "black box".

Internal development is about about you LEARN from the activity. It is fully possibly that you learn motorical combinations, speed, strenght and balance from heavy bag work or walking+kicking.

For someone ELSE to infer this from observing you, it would be like to infer the internal structure of something not directly observable, like we do in atomic physics. You make a series of controlled interactions, and from that you can infer the "internal structure" and "response patterns" although its not directly observable in the naive sense. And to see changes in the same you need to do this before and after interventions, such as training.

 

[Fungus]

"Wu De - 侠 Xia" is to help others (help good to fight evil). Internal development only deals with oneself. There are different things.

MA training can give one more confidence, courage, and patient and that's for sure. But whether MA training can make a bad person to become a good person, there is no prove there.

There were many bad MA guys in the ancient history. 吕布 Lu Bu is a good example. He was good in MA. But he was a bad person. He had betrayed many people who trusted him. What happened to his "internal development"?

IMHO, they way I speak about the term here "internal development" does not correlated with "good" vs "evil".

Yes, you can have "internal development" and use it for "good" or "evil". This is why they are not the same thing.

Internal development is "neutral".

What is "good" or "bad", who is "right" or "wrong", and what is true or false", are at the deepest levels not observer invariant, but relative. Note clearly that what I contemplate here is NOT politics, it is about the relative nature of things from information processing perspective and self preservation perspective. My thinking of this is well rooted since way before starting kyokushin, it's from contemplations about physics and the nature of physical law, and wether categorising things as fundamentally true or false, is really consistent with nature? My conclusion is no. Nature is neither right or wrong, nor good nor evil, "nature just is".

 

[Fungus]

In this forum, people like to talk about Wu De and self-cultivation. People don't want to talk about "侠 Xia - help good to fight against evil".

This reminds me in Buddhism,

1. One branch is called "小乘 Theravada - "Emphasizes individual liberation, the pursuit of Arhatship, and personal cultivation."

2. Another branch is called "大乘 Mahayana - "Emphasizes the liberation of all beings; practitioners not only seek their own emancipation but also assist others in attaining it."

IMO, 1 < 2.

Helping yourself and helping others are not in conflict. On the contrary, even if you think only about yourself, in the longer timescale, you are always depended on your environment. And Environment consists of your fellow humans + other parts of nature. If you only think about selves, at the expense of our environment, with time the environment will strike back, hard.

So no conflict. It can rather be a mistake to separate them, because you then simplify the matter to the point that you are missing the interacting with onesel and the environment.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

"Wu De - 侠 Xia" is to help others (help good to fight evil). Internal development only deals with oneself. There are different things.

MA training can give one more confidence, courage, and patient and that's for sure. But whether MA training can make a bad person to become a good person, there is no prove there.

There were many bad MA guys in the ancient history. 吕布 Lu Bu is a good example. He was good in MA. But he was a bad person. He had betrayed many people who trusted him. What happened to his "internal development"?

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Avoiding the premise of my question does not satisfy. I never spoke of morals or ethics, I spoke of whether there was intangible quality added to your character through the act of training in a dedicated way. I can’t speak to Lu Bu, I am speaking to your assertions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In this forum, people like to talk about Wu De and self-cultivation. People don't want to talk about "侠 Xia - help good to fight against evil".

This reminds me in Buddhism,

1. One branch is called "小乘 Theravada - "Emphasizes individual liberation, the pursuit of Arhatship, and personal cultivation."

2. Another branch is called "大乘 Mahayana - "Emphasizes the liberation of all beings; practitioners not only seek their own emancipation but also assist others in attaining it."

IMO, 1 < 2.

I am not a Buddhist. Im fine with talking about good vs evil, but that is not the premise here.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

IMHO, they way I speak about the term here "internal development" does not correlated with "good" vs "evil".

Yes, you can have "internal development" and use it for "good" or "evil". This is why they are not the same thing.

Internal development is "neutral".

What is "good" or "bad", who is "right" or "wrong", and what is true or false", are at the deepest levels not observer invariant, but relative. Note clearly that what I contemplate here is NOT politics, it is about the relative nature of things from information processing perspective and self preservation perspective. My thinking of this is well rooted since way before starting kyokushin, it's from contemplations about physics and the nature of physical law, and wether categorising things as fundamentally true or false, is really consistent with nature? My conclusion is no. Nature is neither right or wrong, nor good nor evil, "nature just is".

100% agree with this, well said.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Helping yourself and helping others are not in conflict. On the contrary, even if you think only about yourself, in the longer timescale, you are always depended on your environment. And Environment consists of your fellow humans + other parts of nature. If you only think about selves, at the expense of our environment, with time the environment will strike back, hard.

So no conflict. It can rather be a mistake to separate them, because you then simplify the matter to the point that you are missing the interacting with onesel and the environment.

This is the Way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Avoiding the premise of my question does not satisfy. I never spoke of morals or ethics, I spoke of whether there was intangible quality added to your character through the act of training in a dedicated way. I can’t speak to Lu Bu, I am speaking to your assertions.

If you ask my personal experience, I don't think about such things. When I train, I try to think about happiness in my life. I try to block all the unhappiness away from my mind.