Larry Tatum in the magazines

[James Kovacich]

Anyone see Larry Tatum in the current issues of Budo International and Inside Kung Fu?

I'm particularly interested on the Kenpoist's view on his techniques fighting against 2 opponents, as seen in Budo International.

 

[The Kai]

I have both the mags, just not in front of me-so I will generalize a bit. Mr Tatum always has a good article on kenpo. However there are two things that drive me nuts.

1.) Fighting two guys by standing in between them (I know that you don't al;ways have a choice), but the you should be using your strikes, blocks to manouever away
2.) The Animal styles of Kenpo. Need I say more?

 

[Seabrook]

Please elaborate on what you mean by point #2.

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook

http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[The Kai]

The animal sets of Kenpo?? Where did that come from?? Yes I know that there are eagle beak strikes and Tiger claws not really a Animal style though. At least it's not the dark side of kenpo with the heretofore hidden Ninja stuff

T

 

[KempoShaun]

I still love the surfer pose in Budo Intl!

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm not sure I see your point, Tod. Was it that kenpo's sets and forms have no connections to some of the so-called, "animal," styles of traditional Chinese arts? Or was it just that you disagreed with what you saw about how to maneuver two guys who are attacking you? Could you explain what you mean?


Incidentally, didn't you swipe, "The Kai," from "Deep Space 9?"

 

[The Kai]

I'm not sure I see your point, Tod. Was it that kenpo's sets and forms have no connections to some of the so-called, "animal," styles of traditional Chinese arts?

IMHO Kenpo is a fantastic system, able to move away from the feudal animalism, so no there is no connection there. Just the idea that please put in your magazine I'll do whatever. Mr Tatum is one of our seniors I'm sure that he has so much knowledge, it seems a shame to get the podium and not inform or educate

  Or was it just that you disagreed with what you saw about how to maneuver two guys who are attacking you? Could you explain what you mean?

I have a real problem withthe idea of standing between 2 (or more) attackers and trying to riccochet between them

 Incidentally, didn't you swipe, "The Kai," from "Deep Space 9?"

That would be childish and foolish, actually the name comes from a sci-fi series "Farscape". Just kidding Kai actually translates out to "School", very close to the Kan in Shotokan
Todd

 

[James Kovacich]

Just kidding Kai actually translates out to "School", very close to the Kan in Shotokan

Yes, Kai and Kan are at least as far as I know the same. When I trained under my brother-in-law his school name was The Newark Zen Bujutsukan.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm still not sure I see your purpose, Todd. Is it to point out that some of the kenpo techniques against two people are fundamentally wrong? Or that some of the principles expressed are basically incorrect? Or that there was something mechanically wrong with what was pictured? Or that Mr. Tatum doesn't know what he's doing?

I also still don't get the point about what you're now calling, "feudal animalism." Your avatar or whatever says that you're ranked in Kajukenbo? Does that system have NO ties to its past? Mayse I'm wrong, but I'd thought the atricle you're offened by was in, "Inside Kung Fu," and he was trying to bridge from kenpo back to...well, kung fu?

You seem to be grumpy about something, and not quite willing to explain what it is. So...how 'bout just saying what you mean? Or maybe you could simply explain what you think would be better than what you saw in the article?

Oh, incidentally...one of the things that's going on in such kenpo techniques as, "Grasping Eagles," (Oh, darn, there's that pesky animal name...) or, "Parting of the Snakes," (oops, more 'nanimals), might perhaps be teaching to maneuver your opponents, when you cannot maneuver yourself right away?

 

[Brian Jones]

Personally I liked Mr. Miller's article in Inside Kung Fu. it was certainly better than a similar aritcle that came out in Black Belt a month or two ago. I thought the aritlce did a nice of job of showing how Ameircan kenpo looks at the "animal" positions without leaning too heavily on the Kung Fu animal system prospects.
As far as teh Budo artilce. I have it. I don't train with Mr. tatum or any of his students but I imagine he wouldn't prefer to be between 2 or more people ina mass attack situation. But as the tech's show sometimes you don't get to do what you prefer. That's why we have Mass Attck tech's dealing with this. Besides there is just so much you can show in a photo anyway.

Brian Jones

 

[The Kai]

What past??? One thing that can be figured out that no one knows where kenpo can from much beyond Mitose. So therefore any connect is merely assumed or conjecture, unless you know of some direct connection between the 2.
the two man attck, probaly teachs important principles, but by far Don't stand between two mean people!
Again Mr Tatum is one of your most Visible seniors, I think that his knowledge is vast. His mechanics are fantastic
as I understand it the name of techniques has nothing to do with the animal systems but memory devices. Talon is a Grab, not so much the eagle system, raining Lance a overhead strike, not so much a Rain Style
I'm sorry if I seem grumpy

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well--and here's my last post on the matter of your apparent dislike for my instructor's appearance in a magazine--I think you have to accept the basic premise, though of course it's best not to get stuck between two angry people. Though I have to add--having been one of the angry people in a demo or two, being angry doesn't seem to help much.

I recently had some things to say about a Systema article in "Asian Martial Arts," that got some folks a little pissed off at me. I felt that I was asking about what sure looked like some bad ideas and moves in that particular context, rather than arguing against the whole premise.

Of course it would be best not to get stuck like this. And of course, the history of kenpo (as for nearly all martial arts) rapidly trails off into dream. That said, I still don't get what the beef with either the pictured techniques or the picturing of kenpo's debt to Chinese martial arts would be.

But that's my last word on the subject.

 

[The Kai]

Actually I did'nt really mean to dis your instructor, having seen the clips from the website he has the tools, the knowledge. My though is why not share it? What sets kenpo apart?

Yes all arts are in some way indebited to the Chinese martial Arts, but kenpo is not necassirly a chinese art
I'm sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way

 

[James Kovacich]

Good responses. I really wanted to hear a "Kenpo view" first because I didn't want to trash someone who is a good martial artist. But I really would say that the techniques in the Budo International article really were weak from a self defense stand point. From what I remember everything seemed off.

After seeing more realistic Kenpo, I wonder if there was a reason for "posing" that sort of technique.

 

[Brian Jones]

If I had to guess why it was posed this way, I have a couple of answers. One, as I said before, sometimes you don't get the "ideal" situation and you need to know what to do. Secondly for a photo shoot you need to be able to see evryone clearly and what they are doing. This isn't to defend the Budo mag by the way. I thought Mr. Tatum's interview was helpful to introduce kenpo to those who haven't ben exposed to it before. But the magazine is one big classified. Even the articles are there to introduce merchandise.

Brian Jones

 

[Karazenpo]

Robert stated: "Though I have to add--having been one of the angry people in a demo or two, being angry doesn't seem to help much."

I say: "True, but that's a 'demo' though......"

 

[rmcrobertson]

I was wondering if Joe and others could be specific as to what they saw that seemed flawed to them? I haven't looked at the article, so I'd be interested to read the specific--and let me repeat, specific--criticism.

After all, any article requires a little willingness to take the situtation portrayed for what it is, rather than grouching because it isn't the be-all and end-all...so, were there specific problems with execution? or with kenpo principles?

 

[Karazenpo]

I was wondering if Joe and others could be specific as to what they saw that seemed flawed to them? I haven't looked at the article, so I'd be interested to read the specific--and let me repeat, specific--criticism.

After all, any article requires a little willingness to take the situtation portrayed for what it is, rather than grouching because it isn't the be-all and end-all...so, were there specific problems with execution? or with kenpo principles?

Robert, I haven't seen the article, I was just going by the posts. However, Todd was asking about the animals mentioned. From what I could come up with in my research over the years and reading Mitose's book. He (Mitose) did not use the animals and supposedly didn't believe in them. He said something like 'a man should fight like a man, not an animal'. Everything I researched says it was Professor Chow who added the animals and of course later on we know Adriano Emperado and Ed Parker both got involved in the Chinese martial arts. Anyone hear anything different? Respectfully, "Joe"

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I know the guy is a senior, and all. I just have a hard time with mullets and lamb chops in the 21st century. Unless you live in the 909 area code. Or Tenessee.

D.

 

[Seabrook]

Robert, I haven't seen the article, I was just going by the posts. However, Todd was asking about the animals mentioned. From what I could come up with in my research over the years and reading Mitose's book. He (Mitose) did not use the animals and supposedly didn't believe in them. He said something like 'a man should fight like a man, not an animal'. Everything I researched says it was Professor Chow who added the animals and of course later on we know Adriano Emperado and Ed Parker both got involved in the Chinese martial arts. Anyone hear anything different? Respectfully, "Joe"

There is a lot of Chinese Kung Fu contained in Kenpo. In addition to our circular patterns when employing forms, techniques, ect, what makes Kenpo so practical is that we believe in using EVERYTHING that works. That includes tiger claws to such areas as the face, throat, or groin, crane strikes to vital areas and for hooking and breaking purposes, leopard strikes to the throat, snake strikes to the eyes and throat, and devasting heel palms that can penetrate vital areas of the body or hit the joints (typical of Dragon style kung fu). As a black belt in Kung Fu as well, I see tons and tons of parallels between Kenpo and Kung Fu. In fact, as we advance to higher levels of Kenpo and more sophisticated basics, Kenpo takes on a much more Chinese influence than the early belt levels.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com