Kyusho Jitsu

[RRouuselot]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that all supposed ST9 knockouts are in essence the same as a jab on the chin knockout, or just that a practical knockout by a strike to the side of the neck is the same?

What I was alluding to is that there are so many points, be they kyusho related or Accupuncture, that given the size of an average man’s fist and the lack of accuracy of most humans doing an action at full speed it is not any specific "point" that does the actually knock outs as perpetuated by Dillman and other people. Rather it is the shock or strike that induces the KO.

Now I was led to believe that this is the action of the pressure receptor in the carotid synapse, sending the blood pressure plummeting. It can't be oxygen starvation, as this would take about 10 seconds with a solid choke, maybe shorter if uke is fatigued.

Only if that specific area is struck which in some cases it is not.

 

[RRouuselot]

............. If anyone has any questions on pressure point fighting you can still ask me and I will give you a real answer.

PPKO

Ok.....I have some questions...........

1) Why have I yet to see Dillman (live or on mpeg) do any technique on someone actually attacking with any type of realism? All I have ever seen (live and on mpeg/video) is him whacking someone standing pretty much "lamp post" still. I watched most of the mpegs found here: http://www.dillman.com/videos.asp but couldn't seen any where someone is attacked in any realistic form. Most of the so called "attackers" are just standing waiting to get hit. By the way, mpeg # 17 is a hoot! Yeah people always attack me in that way!

2) On Dillman's website it says: "Dillman has rediscovered a formerly secret level of meaning for kata movements"

He did? What did he rediscover? If he is reffering to Kyusho/Tuite/Atemi/or bunkai I seem to remember several other men from Okinawa introducing such concepts waaaaaaaaay before Dillman.

3) On Dillman's website it says: "Dillman began serious martial arts training in 1961 with Harry G. Smith. He went on to study with Daniel K. Pai, Robert Trias and Seiyu Oyata. "

Which one showed him what tuite/kyusho or bunkai was?
Mr. Pai? Nope
Mr. Smith? Doubtful
Mr. Trias? The man that claimed to have studied from Choki Motobu in Japan but unforntunately Motobu had already been dead for several years before Trias stepped foot on Japanese soil.........

4) On Dillman's website it says: "He has studied under five 10th degree black belts from Okinawa"

Who, when, where and for how long and what does he claim to have learned from them? A couple of hours here and there while on vacation in Okinawa maybe? To be honest when Dillman came to my teacher's seminars I can testify he never trained........only video taped.

The reason why I am asking such questions is I am trying to understand how qualified you are to speak on the subject of Kyusho/Pressure Points based on Dillman's qualifications (or lack of). Since I am pretty much know Mr. Dillman’s skill level I am wondering if you have studied from some other person with greater skill than Dillman.

I am guessing you are not claiming superior skill over your teacher Mr. Dillman.......is that correct?

 

[ppko]

I wanna get some before this thread gets locked... %-}

PPKO (Pressure Point Knock Out?) -

A few questions for you -

1) How old are you?

2) How long have you been training, consistently, in the techniques you now espouse?

3) Have you ever actually squared off at arm's reach (no farther) and had your training partner try to take your head off, and in so doing defended yourself successfully with either your alleged "kyushojutsu" or "kiaijutsu?"

4) If you answered "yes" to #3, can we get a copy of the video tape to prove this fact?

What's my point... Anybody?

PPKO cited Robert as being the kind of person that gives MA a bad name. I'd submit that it is not down to earth, "show me or blow me" attitudes that gives MA a bad name, but rather unethical hucksters who falsify their training backgrounds, promote themselves to ridiculous ranks in arts they never studied, and who lay claim to mysterious Jedi powers that undermine our collective credibility.

I have trained with Robert. This is no secret to anyone who has frequented MT for over a year. I am in his camp, in his corner, and will back whatever he says, however he chooses to say it. Why? Because the SOB has knocked me flat on my rather large backside on more than one occasion, and while I am nowhere near well skilled enough to consider myself an expert at anything, I'm no scruff either. When I try to take his head off, at arm's length, with random techniques, and at full tilt boogie Robert sends me headlong into the deck unable to think or breathe thanks to the pain he just inflicted, I count that as proof he knows his sh|t.

PPKO, you ain't earned that yet.

It is not conjecture, not fantasy, not fiction, that Georgie trained under Mr. Oyata for a brief period via seminar. Robert was there. My teacher (who was friends with Mr. Oyata once upon a time) was there as well. There are articles with George being slapped around like the new ***** in prison if you look far enough back in the archives. But I'm sure Mr. D. doesn't go out of his way to publish that kind of info - it takes away from his Jedi Master image.

It seems to me, with the benefit of around 4 or 5 years on different web boards now (maybe longer, I don't remember), and 18 years (God, am I that old???) of training, I notice that DKI folks tend to fall back into the same position when questioned about their training every single time... "You should stop criticizing my teacher. You are a bad person. You give MA a bad name." I remember DKIGirl, a former MT member, reciting the same litany when Robert called her videos into question (as well as her ability to use what she was teaching; she said that if George could do it, she could to - poor logic the likes of which I have yet to see since).

Instead of retreating immediately into a defensive position, PPKO, I'd suggest that you spend more time trying to qualify your statements rather than attack your detractors. It'd go a long way toward increasing my respect for you (at least).

But I don't know what I'm talking about, right?

Let's see what happens next. I'd really like to discuss "kyusho" and vital point striking, but not if it means I can't ask questions and I have to kowtow to someone's image and cult of personality...

%-}

Enjoy.

:asian:

First thing yes I have used Kyusho on the streets several times and it has never not worked, but like your hero said I don't carry around a camera all the time. In the line of work that I was in you got plenty of real time practice ( law enforcement ) we have lots of people that have at one time or are now in law enforcement, and we have a few of Oyatas old students. How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me. People come to our seminars because they have instructors that either don't know, or know what they are talking about but choose not to show anyone. Do I have as much MA experience as Rob, NO, do I have enough real life experience,Yes. I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu. Let me leave you with a quote "when you know you know you don't know, when you don't know you know then you know", which side of that are you on. I have used my techniques without thinking have you.

PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

.......Yes. I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu (if he does).
PPKO

Defensive.....I think not.

I merely wish folks not to be fooled into thinking the "Yoda-esque" crap that your propagate where the attacker just stands and waits to be smacked is real kyusho.

Just wondering if you are going to answer my questions above.....or will they be pushed aside like so many other questions posed to DKI members about Dillamn and his training/knowledge.

You keep mentioning former Oyata students........I can’t remember any serious students ever going over to Dillman’s camp........especially since I know all of the serious ones. However, I have noticed an extremely familiar tag put on more than a few people "ex-DKI member" seems to pop up a lot. If Dillman is such a hot shot then why is it people seem to leave his DKI in droves.....granted every organization has its drop outs but you would think if the instruction and material were that great more people would stay.

 

[KenpoTess]

Mod. Note.

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

~Tess
-MT S. Moderator-

 

[RRouuselot]

How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me. PPKO

I think he actually asked you to explain your training history....

A few questions for you -

1) How old are you?

2) How long have you been training, consistently, in the techniques you now espouse?

3) Have you ever actually squared off at arm's reach (no farther) and had your training partner try to take your head off, and in so doing defended yourself successfully with either your alleged "kyushojutsu" or "kiaijutsu?"

These questions were not answered by you.

........ because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu. PPKO

There are many skilled people doing kyusho........not just in the organization I belong to.

Having lived in China I had the opportunity to see many skilled people doing kyusho.

Let me ask you this.........what is the difference between kyusho and atemi?

 

[ppko]

Defensive.....I think not.

I merely wish folks not to be fooled into thinking the "Yoda-esque" crap that your propagate where the attacker just stands and waits to be smacked is real kyusho.

Just wondering if you are going to answer my questions above.....or will they be pushed aside like so many other questions posed to DKI members about Dillamn and his training/knowledge.

You keep mentioning former Oyata students........I can’t remember any serious students ever going over to Dillman’s camp........especially since I know all of the serious ones. However, I have noticed an extremely familiar tag put on more than a few people "ex-DKI member" seems to pop up a lot. If Dillman is such a hot shot then why is it people seem to leave his DKI in droves.....granted every organization has its drop outs but you would think if the instruction and material were that great more people would stay.

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers, he never claimed to learn all his pressure point knowledge from Mr. Soken, but from many people. In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers, and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now. I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI). We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers, he never claimed to learn all his pressure point knowledge from Mr. Soken, but from many people. In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers, and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now. I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI). We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

PPKO

As for magazines......well some are good and some not.....Black Belt Magazine.....NOT.

I know for a fact that he learned no Kyusho from Soken. My good friend Patrick McCarthy was present at the time Dillman met Soken.


Does Dillman speak Portugese or Okinawan.......because Soken only speaks those 2 languages.....I am wondering how any meaningful transmission of information as complex as kyusho could have taken place between the two of them.....

Mr. Soken came to the US for a tournament McCarthy, Dillman and several others were at and gave a demonstration, took some photos with some people and then had to return to Okinawa suddenly for what I think was a medical emergency of some kind. No secret scrolls, no private one on one training.............

 

[ppko]

I think he actually asked you to explain your training history....




These questions were not answered by you.



There are many skilled people doing kyusho........not just in the organization I belong to.

Having lived in China I had the opportunity to see many skilled people doing kyusho.

Let me ask you this.........what is the difference between kyusho and atemi?

Atemi- my understanding of Atemi is the focus on 365 points located on the central nervous system one touch one kill method.
Kyusho- my understanding of kyusho jitsu is one second fighting we don't practice to kill but rather knock out our opponent

 

[RRouuselot]

Atemi- my understanding of Atemi is the focus on 365 points located on the central nervous system one touch one kill method.
Kyusho- my understanding of kyusho jitsu is one second fighting we don't practice to kill but rather knock out our opponent

You have it exactly the opposite. Which is which is why I was saying that your people were not doing Kyusho on the mpeg etc.....


I rest my case.

 

[ppko]

As for magazines......well some are good and some not.....Black Belt Magazine.....NOT.

I know for a fact that he learned no Kyusho from Soken. My good friend Patrick McCarthy was present at the time Dillman met Soken.


Does Dillman speak Portugese or Okinawan.......because Soken only speaks those 2 languages.....I am wondering how any meaningful transmission of information as complex as kyusho could have taken place between the two of them.....

Mr. Soken came to the US for a tournament McCarthy, Dillman and several others were at and gave a demonstration, took some photos with some people and then had to return to Okinawa suddenly for what I think was a medical emergency of some kind. No secret scrolls, no private one on one training.............

I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you, there are a lot of people that do not like Mr. Dillman, and therefor might make-up stories to make them look better.

PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you, there are a lot of people that do not like Mr. Dillman, and therefor might make-up stories to make them look better.

PPKO

Well, I have no reason to think my good friend would lie to me about something like that...........I usually am not that suspicious of what my friends tell me.

 

[RRouuselot]

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said. PPKO

To quote you from another post regarding the above statement..........

I don't know this for a fact and unless you were there than niether do you

........but you dont seem to question it.

He has done some great things for the Martial Arts PPKO

I will give him "props" for one thing.......he is a Master at promoting.

 

[Cruentus]

Robert,

Sorry to interrupt...

I have a technical question.

So Atemi is the practice of knocking out your opponent through pressure points, and Kyusho is "1 touch 1 kill" through pressure points? Is this correct?

If so, how do you road test Kyusho (assuming that going around and killing isn't an option)? I mean...how does it "work" period? If your not comfortable answering that one publically, please PM me. Also, what's the language translation of each, as I know that your well versed in language.

Thanks!
:asian:

 

[terryl965]

Very interesting I to would like to know more about one touch one kill(kyusho)Pm me too like tulisan, this Intriques me, I do not know why, any info. that you have please fprward to me Thanks..... God Bless America

 

[RHD]

Very interesting I to would like to know more about one touch one kill(kyusho)Pm me too like tulisan, this Intriques me, I do not know why, any info. that you have please fprward to me Thanks..... God Bless America

How do you road test kyusho? Well, you don't. Ha ha...but you can look at certain similar events.

For example there was a publicized case in our local media a few years back. In a nearby town a bar owner was killed in an altercation. This person was a middle aged man, not in the best of shape, but large. He chose to eject a young fellow from his bar and the young man assumed a "fighting stance", then struck the bar owner in the chest. The man died shortly after because the strike induced a lethal heart arryhthmia. Of course no one will know for sure, but the strike was to the chest according to all witness accounts, and I believe that the young man inadvertantly hit the bar owner in a vital point. Does this mean that kyusho is valid? No. However, it does raise concerns as to the ramifications of striking somone in the chest...where several vital points that supposedly affect the heart are easily accessed. There are from time to time, other examples of similar situations in the media.

Now I am not neither defending Kyusho or Mr. Dillman, nor promoting them. If nothing else, kyusho contitutes good targeting. I personally feel it's not safe to experiment with such things "all out". However, I agree with whoever pointed out that you never see demo's of kyusho with a resisting partner. Put on some body armor, and show it in action! Otherwise practicing against a static, non resisting uke will severly limit one's ability to apply and give little credibilty to thier art.

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work? Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts? Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic. I'd really like to direct the question to Rrousselot, or anyone else here who has legitimate knowledge of the art specifically. Thank you.

 

[Cruentus]

I also have a question here: If kyosho training is specifically geared toward "one touch" defense, what happens if it doesn't work? Where does this leave the student who hasn't mastered the art, in terms of defensive capabilities? Are there other techniques incorporated into the repertoire such as blocking, kicking, locking, trapping, etc.? Or should this system be learned as an add on to other arts? Please excuse me, but I'm quite ignorant on this topic. I'd really like to direct the question to Rrousselot, or anyone else here who has legitimate knowledge of the art specifically. Thank you.

If one touch doesn't work, I'd assume they'd touch em again!

 

[Matt Stone]

First thing yes I have used Kyusho on the streets several times and it has never not worked, but like your hero said I don't carry around a camera all the time.

Sure you have... The unprovable argument that someone has used something "on the street" is a common defense... It purports to legitimize the claims of the individual - the technique is valid, and the individual has combat experience. However, it is (at least with all the legitimate practitioners I have ever trained with) the least often cited qualifier. Most folks I know or have trained with (and they are usually one and the same) are more than willing to demo a questionable technique on the spot at whatever level of intensity you prefer.

In the line of work that I was in you got plenty of real time practice ( law enforcement )

Really? And what particular branch of law enforcement allowed you to make use of knock out techniques? My father was a career police officer, and I am a military paralegal. As a martial artist and a paralegal I have had frequent occasion to train, train with, and discuss procedures with military and civlian law enforcement personnel... Unless you are former LAPD (just kidding), I doubt any department (if you were a cop) would allow you to KO suspects at will, thereby affording you the "street cred" you allude to.

Please, where did you work, what did you do, and what particular duties enabled you to KO folks at full tilt boogie often enough to allege skill in that technique?

lots of people that have at one time or are now in law enforcement,

And there are a lot of military people around the Army post I am assigned to that train in bogus, fradulent martial arts schools... What's your point? That the student body somehow qualifies the training conducted? Hardly. If prominent people attend a crap seminar, does the seminar get better by the quality of its attendees? I don't think so...

How can you tell me that I don't have enough real experience when you no nothing about me.

I "told" you no such thing. Please re-read my post, and if possible, answer the questions I asked.

People come to our seminars because they have instructors that either don't know, or know what they are talking about but choose not to show anyone.

Or because they feel that they will be spoon-fed information that their instructors don't feel they are either a) technically prepared for or b) ethically mature enough to handle.

Anyone that promises quick skills and free information will find attendees clamoring to get in the door. Whether those skills and that information is worth the effort or whether the attendees were of proper character remains to be seen... Only time will tell in either case.

Do I have as much MA experience as Rob, NO, do I have enough real life experience,Yes.

Please, post your curriculum vitae for us to review. I would love to know what "real life experience" you have that beats 20+ years of training directly under the main influence your teacher learned very little actual information from...

I can tell when someone is full of crap and has to get defensive when someone from DKI gets in here, because he is afraid that people will realize that he isn't the only one that knows true Kyusho Jitsu.

And I can tell when someone from DKI who would solicit information on "kyusho jitsu" from other sources on internet fora (been done before by others, you aren't the only one) gets defensive about the alleged skills of his seminar teacher and class instructors rather than providing rebuttal comments or answers to questions posed...

And it is "jutsu," not "jitsu." God I can't believe this is still an issue...

About Dillmans knowledge all I know is what I am told I was not around when GM Dillman first started training in the Martial Arts, but there are lots of articles and magazines to back up what he has said.

Well, some of us have been around that long... Robert is telling you flatly that he was present when Dillman attended the seminars with Mr. Oyata! How much more first hand do you need? And if you are defending information presented to you be a particular party, do you genuinely believe that said party is going to propagate information detrimental to his own public image? I doubt it.

He has done some great things for the Martial Arts and and has had some great teachers,

That wasn't the issue. The fundamental issue remains that the pressure point fighting techniques being taught by DKI are neither trained nor demonstrated at full speed... Why? Either the techniques are too deadly (in which case striking them at a stand still should only serve to increase the effect), or the instructors are incapable of making them work at that pace.

In my oppinion he has proven his method, and has proven it all over the world, we continually test in Medical Centers,

How has he "proven" his method? If I say that I have "rediscovered" a previously forgotten method of flying a fighter plane, but I am unwilling to actually fly said plane in combat conditions, how then is my "rediscovered" flying skill validated? Your logic fails you.

And what medical research has been conducted? Perhaps you personally are unaware of where and when, but if you choose to cite such research it'd be a good idea to be prepared to provide that to anyone that asks... Otherwise it is just a good story.

and take in new people all the time from all sorts of different backgrounds. We have people from all over the world in DKI (china, france, UK, ecuador, netherlands, canada......).Don't you think that some of these people would have proven us wrong by now.

Because you get new students (though I doubt they are in the hordes you imply they come in), and because they come from all over the world, doesn't mean that what they are being taught is any more or less questionable. They could only prove you wrong if they knew more than what was being taught by DKI, in which case (if they did know more) I don't think they'd be attending DKI seminars...

I cannot speak for those that left DKI ( by the way there hasn't been that many people leve DKI).

Nor can you truly speak for those you claim left Mr. Oyata... I know of an individual in our local area that claims to be a student of Mr. Oyata. His kata are good, his knowledge is good, and I genuinely believe him to be a good man. But nobody that has been a regular student of Mr. Oyata's (I mean those that don't just attend seminars, but actually trained in his dojo) seems to know him... This leads me to believe that those who "left" Mr. Oyata's training may not have done so because they felt Dillman had more to offer. They may have relocated and DKI was the only thing they could find. They may have left after not "learned" enough quickly enough to satisfy their craving. There could be any of a number of reasons, but their departure does not imply DKI is superior.

We show techniques at a stand still so people can learn them.

Fine. But when they have learned it, what next?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow...

I...I'm speechless...the Chi just hit me through my keyboard...it was like getting run over by a Bull...that's it!!! It's BULL CHIT !!!

I am really disappointed in everyone at Martial Talk...that you can have a "polite and respectful" discussion about this nonsense... This stuff gives martial arts a bad name. Any serious discussion of Dim Mak makes you all look like...dare I say it...fools.

Check out the Fox News story on Dim Mak and PPKO's available from Bullshido.com

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.ph...downloaddetails&lid=80&ttitle=Dim_Mak_vs._BJJ