Kyusho Jitsu

[Turbo]

Can someone elaborate on the right kind of power? Fa jing I think I got that covered but Yes I tried the Yin and Yang striking principle, also changing polarity, and using different striking tools, from a knuckle to a shuto. I tried a penetrating blow to a hit and come off....As hard as I hit gb20 there was a couple of times the force alone should have knocked my uke out! I cant figure it out....Turbo

 

[ppko]

Can someone elaborate on the right kind of power? Fa jing I think I got that covered but Yes I tried the Yin and Yang striking principle, also changing polarity, and using different striking tools, from a knuckle to a shuto. I tried a penetrating blow to a hit and come off....As hard as I hit gb20 there was a couple of times the force alone should have knocked my uke out! I cant figure it out....Turbo

It all comes down to experience once you get a good feeling with what power you need where then you will know. Different people need different things like I said before try slacking off a bit, another thing I have a feeling this will be your first knock out so don't be so tense try loosening up a bit and don't be so anxious the knock out will come in due time.

With Respect
PPKO

 

[Matt Stone]

It all comes down to experience once you get a good feeling with what power you need where then you will know. Different people need different things like I said before try slacking off a bit, another thing I have a feeling this will be your first knock out so don't be so tense try loosening up a bit and don't be so anxious the knock out will come in due time.

With Respect
PPKO

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that the amount of pressure is a variable that cannot be anticipated... You said that "different people (targets?) need different things..." This would seem to imply that your pressure points aren't as effective as implied. It would certainly seem to be the death knell of the "no touch" KO as well...

Admittedly, some points (typically muscle points) require variable amounts of pressure based on the muscularity of the opponent, but bone points (which break the bone), nerve points (which directly affect the nerves), and blood points (which affect the veins and arteries) are much more consistent in their effects.

Turbo -

For our use, it isn't a question of how much power you need, it is an issue of how deep you need to penetrate.

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...

 

[Rich Parsons]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO

I've tried that...no luck.

I have tried this as well.

One gentleman was tapping the point in the side of my neck like he was lining up is strike. He could not get it to work when he did strike. Others tried this as well, including George Dillman. No Knock Out. Mr Dillman did say that some were harder to knock out than others. What took me by surprise that one of the guys wanted to try again. I had no problem until he wound up like a nice hey maker. I raised my hands and said,"Stop". "I realize that a rotation of my head on the spine at velocity will knock me out." "Please use the point and not physics of a bigger stronger strike."

Later, I was being a problem beause the helpers could not get another point to work on my arms to relase a grab. eorge Dillman came over. He did the technique and it did not force the release, then siad, "You are very strong". He did the technique again and then immediately reversed it to another technique. It forced the release. Now personally I think it was more to do with that I had Grabbed (* used my muscle action *), he moved, causing a reaction (* my muscle reaction *), and his counter, and I could not react other than to let go. So, yes the second counter worked.

So, my question to everyone here. Does this count as a pressure point attack? Or is this simple techniques put together. Both of George Dillman's attacks or counters were to points he pointed out as targets. So, was it physics of the body, and not quite a pressure point release, versus a pressure point release?

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I'm afraid that, in my experience, the DKI techniques work exceeedingly well when applied by a DKI instructor to one of his own students but rarely work when applied by a DKI instructor to a sceptic.

In fairness, I saw a KO by a DKI instructor (Mr. Kline?) at a Modern Arnis seminar in Michigan several years ago. Sitting next to me was an ophthalmologist who found many of the physiological explanations quite bizarre (e.g., treating a heart attack by pressure on the eyes). Nonetheless, when he saw the person's reaction to the KO, he felt it could not have been faked.

 

[Turbo]

Rich,

Master Dillman used two way action on you to get the release....its not pressure points. He explains and uses it alot, when you resist in a certain direction you are weaker in the opposite.

When you attack a point more than once, each time the pain should get worse even if using the same amount of force. I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo

 

[Turbo]

Hey Mike,

Can you tell me how far to penetrate on these points in this particular case:

LI10 to GB20

PLease more information!

Turbo

 

[RRouuselot]

Come to a DKI seminar and tell them what you have told me and I am sure they will have no problem KOing you, preferably make it a George Dillman seminar.

PPKO

You still have an invite to come to Mr. Oyata's seminar in next month and show how all this stuff (Kiaijutsu etc.) works..........it will be one of the few times I am in the US....

 

[RRouuselot]

We only learn how to do the knock outs but we also research how to do the kills but we do not practice those there is no need to we have done it for medical research and that is all we have to do.

PPKO

I know when I shoot an animal with a gun I can kill it becasue I have done it before.........how do you know they are actually "kill-Bill kyusho pionts" unless you actually have done it???

Also.........which points do you consider Kyusho points and which do you consider Atemi points? Do strike them differently?

ppko,
I have asked you several serious/legit questions and to date you have not answered them.

 

[RRouuselot]

Rich,

I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo

Are you thinking of synovial fluid?

 

[RRouuselot]

I'm afraid that, in my experience, the DKI techniques work exceeedingly well when applied by a DKI instructor to one of his own students but rarely work when applied by a DKI instructor to a sceptic.

I had had the pretty much the same result with DKI people.

 

[ppko]

I know when I shoot an animal with a gun I can kill becasue I have done it before.........how do you know they are actually "kill-Bill kyusho pionts" unless you actually have done it???

Also.........which points do you consider Kyusho points and which do you consider Atemi points? How do strike them differently? Or do you strike them differently?

ppko,
I have asked you several serious/legit questions and to date you have not answered them.

The last time we did a kill in a research facility we left the person out for 9sec. when the Dr.'s were yelling to bring him back. No I have not done these but we have enough research to back up our claims.
First I have not practiced Atemi, We use all pressure points on the body for Kyusho including the internal ones. We ussually keep it watered down to Knock outs but we still practice the kill shots. We sit down a lot discuss diurnal cycle, element of distruction, etc. When we practice the kill shots we just practice without hitting the opponent. When we do KOs the strikes are done seperatly just in case.
PPKO

 

[ppko]

So, what it sounds like you are saying is that the amount of pressure is a variable that cannot be anticipated... You said that "different people (targets?) need different things..." This would seem to imply that your pressure points aren't as effective as implied. It would certainly seem to be the death knell of the "no touch" KO as well...

Admittedly, some points (typically muscle points) require variable amounts of pressure based on the muscularity of the opponent, but bone points (which break the bone), nerve points (which directly affect the nerves), and blood points (which affect the veins and arteries) are much more consistent in their effects.

Turbo -

For our use, it isn't a question of how much power you need, it is an issue of how deep you need to penetrate.

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...

No we just no how to read body types. In the dojo you have to use variable pressure on the street you don't care. Yes you are right but you take someone like me that doesn't feel most metal points. Then it is a matter of how much you either cheat or force you apply on your next technique it should be softer.

PPKO

 

[RRouuselot]

The last time we did a kill in a research facility we left the person out for 9sec. when the Dr.'s were yelling to bring him back. No I have not done these but we have enough research to back up our claims.PPKO

Why don’t you post it so we can all see it.

First I have not practiced Atemi, We use all pressure points on the body for Kyusho including the internal ones. We ussually keep it watered down to Knock outs but we still practice the kill shots. We sit down a lot discuss diurnal cycle, element of distruction, etc. When we practice the kill shots we just practice without hitting the opponent. When we do KOs the strikes are done seperatly just in case.PPKO

You must have missed the definition I supplied up a few posts on the differences between Atemi and Kyusho.

From the mpegs I have seen and from what I have winessed from DKI people firsthand all you are doing is Atemi points. I have yet to seen any DKI people use kyusho points.

 

[ppko]

I have tried this as well.

One gentleman was tapping the point in the side of my neck like he was lining up is strike. He could not get it to work when he did strike. Others tried this as well, including George Dillman. No Knock Out. Mr Dillman did say that some were harder to knock out than others. What took me by surprise that one of the guys wanted to try again. I had no problem until he wound up like a nice hey maker. I raised my hands and said,"Stop". "I realize that a rotation of my head on the spine at velocity will knock me out." "Please use the point and not physics of a bigger stronger strike."

Later, I was being a problem beause the helpers could not get another point to work on my arms to relase a grab. eorge Dillman came over. He did the technique and it did not force the release, then siad, "You are very strong". He did the technique again and then immediately reversed it to another technique. It forced the release. Now personally I think it was more to do with that I had Grabbed (* used my muscle action *), he moved, causing a reaction (* my muscle reaction *), and his counter, and I could not react other than to let go. So, yes the second counter worked.

So, my question to everyone here. Does this count as a pressure point attack? Or is this simple techniques put together. Both of George Dillman's attacks or counters were to points he pointed out as targets. So, was it physics of the body, and not quite a pressure point release, versus a pressure point release?

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:

The area of activation is the area that I can hit, rub, or touch to activate that pressure point. Every time you attack a pressure point it leaves it more vulnerable to attack the second time.

PPKO

 

[Mark L]

And I'd advise anyone to guard against claiming to possess "fa jing." It is a much misunderstood term, and as equally inflammatory in certain circles as claims of "no touch" KO ability...

What's fa jing?

 

[Turbo]

I got this definition from worldtaiji.com

Fads come and go. But fa-jing has been out there for a long time and utilised by many famous martial artists. The old one-inch punch was the flavour of the day back in the 70's and was glorified and mystified. People would study photos of Bruce Lee using mathematical equations and geometrical calculations to try and gain his secrets, especially that of the one-inch punch. All they needed to do was to have someone tell them about fa-jing which is what all of these people were using to gain such immense power over such short distances. Most people would study the hands of the exponents, claiming that it was this angle or this direction that caused this supernatural power. Others would call it Qi; others would just give up trying.
They all missed the boat though as it is the body that one must watch in order to find out how one gains fa-jing. The attacking peripheral is only secondary to what the body is doing. There is an old saying, one that not many people use nowadays as it is not in vogue. It is not in vogue because people simply got the real meaning wrong. The whole body is a weapon. Everyone who has been around a bit has heard of that saying. Now we all understand this to mean that the elbow is a weapon, the knee is a weapon, the fists, head, back, shoulders etc. No, this is wrong, what this saying means is literally, the whole body is the weapon while the parts are only secondary and happen as an adjunct to what the body is doing, this is real fa-jing. The fist does not punch, the whole body punches, the elbow does not strike, the whole body strikes etc.

The technique of fa-jing lies in what the body does to cause the peripheral to be thrust out at great speed and power. It is not the strength of the triceps, or the laterals that cause the power, but rather the whole body. So it stands to reason, that a smaller person is able to generate much more power than a body builder who is only using his triceps to generate the power for the punch, by using his whole body. There is simply much more power in a whole body than in one triceps muscle.

If one could utilise the power generated from a sneeze, this would be perfect fa-jing. When we sneeze, the whole body reacts violently, not just one part, but the whole. We are unable even to keep our eyes open upon the act of sneezing. It is the same with fa-jing. Upon impact, the eyes are closed for that split second and the body shakes violently at high frequency, throwing out a very deadly fist, or palm or elbow.

But not only is the whole body used as an initiator of such power for the peripherals, the whole body can be used, physically as a weapon. For instance, when someone grabs you, or is trying to take you down, grapple you etc. The whole body will perform a fa-jing movement, anywhere. This immense power is enough to cause even the strongest grapple to loosen his grip. The beauty of fa-jing is however, that in order for even the smallest part of the body to do fa-jing, every other portion must also be doing fa-jing, otherwise it is not fa-jing and only a muscular strike. And so, the grappler would not only find himself being shaken violently, some other peripheral would also be striking to points on his body.

Fa-jing and dim-mak are inseparable. There is dim-mak at a base level where someone is able to strike for instance to a point called 'stomach 9' just over the carotid sinus to cause a knock out. This by the way is the classic KO point used by an increasing number of karateka to show how good they are. Or one uses "Liver 13" to cause KO and great internal damage using finger strikes. These points can be used by anyone at a base level using pure physical force and not fa-jing. But if one wishes to rise to the highest level of dim-mak, then one must understand real fa-jing. This is where we use four different body shakes in order to 'put in the adverse Qi' and not just strike at physical dim-mak points.

Using fa-jing and dim-mak in this way, we are able to systematically cause the opponent's body to react in a known way. We are able to drain energy from the spleen to cause him to simply fall down, still conscious but not able to do anything about it. We are able to ad Qi to certain points to cause an organ to explode from within. We are even able to cause certain disease states to happen instantaneously by striking certain points. For instance, most will know that sunstroke is not nice. It makes us feel really crook and totally unable to do anything but sit down, let alone fight. Using dim-mak and fa-jing we are able to cause someone to have a bad case of sunstroke. We also know how to cure this sunstroke using the dim-mak antidote points. In this way, dim-mak and fa-jing are also used for healing. So we have a death art used to heal people. These points can actually be used to cure a real case of sunstroke.

We are able to cause someone's right or left leg to shake so violently that he falls down, for this we use certain spleen points on the upper arm and shoulder. But striking at these points without fa-jing will only cause the physical damage caused by the physical power of the strike. This is not fa-jing.

So we lean a few body shakes and think that we know all about fa-jing. No, then we have to learn all about the 'C' back and the rising Qi. Look at Bruce Lee when he is fighting, what do you see. Most people look at the physical movements and try to emulate what he was doing. Not many look at what was in his eyes or what the whole of his body was doing. In his own way, Bruce Lee was making use of a primordial posture called 'C' back. Or changing his human brain for the reptilian brain. We all of us still have bits in our brains that go back to prehistory and this part of the brain can be utilised by using certain body postures to bring out this fighting energy.

'C' back? Look at the great silver back (Gorilla to those who are not animal inclined); see what his back is doing naturally. It is not an 'S' shape like ours, but rather makes a 'C' shape. The Gorilla, although a placid calm animal, is also one of the greatest fighters of the animal world when protection of his family is concerned. He is a constant state or readiness, due to his 'C' back. The Qi is constantly ready to defend and attack. The eyes tell the story. When we cause our body to be in this state, the eyes change and we are ready to defend. It was the same way with Bruce Lee; he would go into that little stance of his alone and so bring up the fighting Qi. This is the difference between a martial artist and one who knows how to fight.

The 'C' back and the reptilian brain etc. are all scientific, based upon Western science. So where does all of this fit in with the ancient Chinese martial artists? All one has to do to find out that our current scientific knowledge about the human body is all there in the Chinese classics written hundreds of years ago. It states in the Taiji classics that we must round the shoulders and hollow the chest. 'C' back! It also states that we must see with the eye of the eagle, using the middle peripheral vision or 'Eagle Vision'. When we go into the 'C' back posture, the whole attitude changes and we are ready to fight. The arms, legs, back, chest, feet head, are all energised ready for action and release of energy. Couple this with the fa-jing and we have the classic animal way of self-defence. Simply put, hit him with as much power and speed before he has even attacked. This is stated in the Chinese classic of; 'if he attacks you, attack him first'.

The Types of Fa-jing:

There are four kinds of fa-jing, all generated from the whole body but having different ways to generate the power. The most common of the fa-jing is the 'closed shaking fa-jing'. This is where we are using the natural stance and punch using the same fist as the foot that is forward. The body shakes violently from left (if using a right fist) to right and then snaps back to the right to 'close' the movement. This final closing happens just upon impact and causes a wave of energy to be thrust into the target. The voice also plays an important part in all fa-jing. The voice is an intermediary between the physical movement and the internal action. Once again it gets back to the classics which say that the breath must be natural. Now most people interpret this as being that the breath must be slow and constant, but this is wrong. Only if you are performing a slow and constant movement must the breath be that. However, if we are performing a sudden fa-jing movement then the breath must also act accordingly with an explosive sound emanating from the voice box. This is what natural breathing means, when the breath is in harmony with the movement. So with a fa-jing movement, we cannot use a slow haaa sound for instance, we must use an explosive sound, which can be anything as long as it is explosive, like 'ba' or 'pa'.

The next fa-jing is the 'open' fa-jing shake. This is where in Taiji we use the posture known as single whip to strike to no less than four dim-mak points on the neck. This time, the body is (assuming that the right palm is doing the work with the right foot forward) shook firstly to the left, then to the right and finally with this final attack upon St.9 & SI16, back to the left, leaving an 'open' posture. This type of fa-jing move is said to suck energy away from the opponent.

The third fa-jing action is called 'closed up shaking fa-jing' and is used to put Qi into the points to cause sunstroke or to cause the associated organ to explode. This time the body sakes in the closed way, but also there is a spiralling of the body upward upon impact.

The fourth way of fa-jing is the 'open down fa-jing shake' and is used to drain energy from the lower heating space, thus draining energy from the body. It is the same as the open fa-jing but with a downward spiralling shake.

Many martial artists have the fa-jing naturally and would never have to learn it, but for the most of us it's a matter of hard slog to gain this great power.

A video called 'Fa-Jing, The Way Of Power, how to gain it, how to use it' is available from MTG Video.

Erle Montaigue is an Australian Martial Artist living in Australia and travelling to the USA, Canada and Europe each year to give workshops.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Master Dillman used two way action on you to get the release....its not pressure points. He explains and uses it alot, when you resist in a certain direction you are weaker in the opposite.

When you attack a point more than once, each time the pain should get worse even if using the same amount of force. I forgot the technical term for the "Protective Juice" that dillman says is around a point, but with every technique applied the "Juice" gets less and less until you can't take any force at all.
Turbo

Ok, I would agree that the two way action is not a pressure point. It was hard for me to see it as such, then or now.

Some might ask why I did not ask George Dillman right then. Others had questions and he was off, to help them. I did not chase him down.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.

:asian:

Robert and or Matt,

You both have given knowledgeable answers in my mind previously.

Do you have an opinion of statment or answer to these questions?

Does the type of center being attack determine the size of the area of sensitivity?

Thanks

 

[RRouuselot]

Next question, some have said size of activation?

Can you activate a pressure point center and not cause a reaction, yet make it much more readily to attack the second time?

So the size would be to the type of activation? Muscle or nerve or bone?

Thank you for those who answer.
----------------------------------------------------------
Robert and or Matt,

You both have given knowledgeable answers in my mind previously.

Do you have an opinion of statment or answer to these questions?

Does the type of center being attack determine the size of the area of sensitivity?

Thanks

Yes it does matter. Some weak areas of the body are obviously weaker than others.

There are places on the arm that respond to pressure/pain much slower than some places on the inside/underside (funny bone for example)of the arm as well as places on the torso.

Having said that, the more conditioned areas of the body require a bit more juice when being struck as opposed to those along the rib cage for example.

About size: Since Kyusho and Atemi strikes are often not using a single acupuncture point, as I have mentioned numerous times before, the size will very. This is due to the fact that there maybe be a "cluster" of acupuncture points in a given area and unless you have a really small finger for striking and are REALLY accurate you may hit several points with one blow.

On the side of the neck for example there are a combination of about 5~10 acupuncture points that are accidently struck at the same when doing a "neck whack" KO (which does not use kyusho or atemi to produce the KO by the way).

DKI people claim they are hitting a "kyusho" point when doing this strike. Yet NONE of them can tell me which one.
If you look at any of the "neck whack" Kos they do you will see them hit at least 3~4 points each time. They don’t always hit the same 3~4 though. Kinda makes ya wonder why they are getting Koed if they are using the exact same point each time. Also kinda makes ya wonder why they say they are using kyusho but can't seem to tell ya which point they are using.:lol:


Points on the limbs tend to be more spread out away from each other than those on the torso. They (limb areas) are also more accessible but tend to be more resilient to strikes than those on the torso too.