Kung Fu Exercise

[JowGaWolf]

One & the same ... Are you S, J or M?

I'm M. The guy that likes to sweep. Hopefully we'll be able to get some more sparring in with you guys after we heal from our injuries. I learned the hard way of how not to block a heel kick and damaged my forearm really bad. Congrats to your school on doing well in the recent competitions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not going to comment on Jake, as that issue has been covered pretty well

However, I always wondered about fore-arm conditioning that people sometimes practice. I never saw a need for it.

I have had many people complain that their arms hurt when making contact with mine, and I wonder if it's just because they're more tense and tend to meet my force more bluntly. Granted, I am thin and kind of boney. But, I don't find that my more experienced training partners ever complain, and I don't find that my arms hurt even on the occasions that people deliberately strike at them (with empty hands, at least). So, yeah. Preventing damage to your forearms, I think, has far more to do with maintaining a less rigid attitude and deflecting force rather than meeting it head on.

I don't see conditioning that area as being the least bit important. But then, I don't employ a particularly hard style.

Forearm conditioning is vital in my style of Kung Fu where we use our forearm to attack and defend. In fact we don't have to punch or kick a person to hurt them. Our blocks can hurt someone just the same, making the person less willing to throw another punch or kick. If your forearms aren't conditioned then someone like me will attack your forearm when you punch. Karate does a lot of this as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Tigercrane
I'm a Dit Da Jow junkie and the way that you describe it is the way that I've seen most Kung Fu schools do it. It's the repetitive impact that conditions and not the force of the impact. Most people think "hit something hard to make your hand hard" but all that does is damage your hand.

 

[Transk53]

Could you post some vids?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm only pointing out some of the training that I do at my school for conditioning our forearms.

Arm conditioning at my school does this first exercise, a similar version to the one at the 1:00 mark.. The goal isn't to hit as hard as you can. The guys in the middle seem to have some tough forearms because they are going at it hard. It looks like they are trying to hit as hard as they can but they aren't.

This is the same thing, but this is what you would look like if your arms aren't conditioned. The fists shouldn't be closed and the hand should be relaxed. The purpose is to condition the bone and not the muscle

This guy explains the concept of bone conditioning the way that my Sifu taught me.

 

[clfsean]

I'm M. The guy that likes to sweep. Hopefully we'll be able to get some more sparring in with you guys after we heal from our injuries. I learned the hard way of how not to block a heel kick and damaged my forearm really bad. Congrats to your school on doing well in the recent competitions.

C'mon anytime! He's training up now for the September World Kuo Shu event in Argentina & we're having our Gathering this weekend.

 

[mograph]

Wild. This is the first thread that has made me think about strengthening my bones this way. I think I'll start with weight-bearing (push-ups, handstands) then move to low-impact ... after more research, of course. Thanks!

Question to JowGaWolf: could a supplement to your training involve striking a large, flat surface (say, parallel to the forearm) to distribute the stress over a larger area?

 

[JowGaWolf]

C'mon anytime! He's training up now for the September World Kuo Shu event in Argentina & we're having our Gathering this weekend.

I'll definitely try to make it there this month even if it's just to say hello. You guys made us train harder. We went from 3 days a week to 5 days, 1 hour classes to 2 hours, and a dedicated day for only sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wild. This is the first thread that has made me think about strengthening my bones this way. I think I'll start with weight-bearing (push-ups, handstands) then move to low-impact ... after more research, of course. Thanks!

Question to JowGaWolf: could a supplement to your training involve striking a large, flat surface (say, parallel to the forearm) to distribute the stress over a larger area?

Short answer: distributing the stress over a larger area won't work because it doesn't reach the bone.

Detailed answer: Below

For our training we use round surface that has a similar diameter to someone's wrist, arm, legs because that what we are using our forearms to strike. A large flat surface wouldn't hit the bone in your forearm, much of that impact would be absorb by your muscle. You can hit your forearm on the flat part of a desk and then on the edge of a desk to get a really good idea of difference. You want the impact to hit the bone without having to bash your forearm hard against it. Don't worry if it doesn't hurt right away because after 15 to 20 repetitive strikes you'll begin to feel it. You'll need to make sure that the impacts to your forearm aren't in just one place. You have to hit up and down the forearm so that the entire forearm is conditioned. If it hurts after before 10 strikes then you are hitting yourself too hard. You will feel pain, but should be like you are about to bruise and not like your bone is about to break. Once you feel that you are about to bruise then stop so and let your body heal for about a week. If you do this correctly then you should heal in a few days. The most I've been able to do this type of conditioning is twice a week, with the other days being used to let my forearm heal. Make sure that you are drinking milk or getting calcium in your body to help with healing the bone. I try to do 4 glasses of milk or eat cereal with milk at least 4 times a week. I don't go overboard.

VERY IMPORTANT. Stay off the veins in your wrist and the underside of your forearm, you can't condition that side of your arms with this method.

For conditioning the striking knuckles some kind of padding like a kung fu sandbag, or something that gives in a similar manner. Sometimes I go to a park and I do knuckle push ups in the grass because my knuckle dig into the soil which helps to condition the valleys of my knuckles and not just the peaks.. Then while I'm in a push up position. I will strike my fist into the ground with one fist while supporting myself with the other. I focus more of on technique with having only the 1st three knuckles make the initial impact. Target the first to knuckles only, then the middle knuckle. When I hit with the middle knuckle I try to use it like a spike to penetrate the soil. I know when I'm doing this correctly when I fill that knuckle sink deeper into the soil with little effort. Remember the object isn't to pound the fist but to send all of the force from a light strike into the ground. Just make sure that your grass area is clear of rocks, stick, and other dangerous objects. Make sure that the soil is also not dry

 

[tigercrane]

I'm only pointing out some of the training that I do at my school for conditioning our forearms.

Arm conditioning at my school does this first exercise, a similar version to the one at the 1:00 mark.. The goal isn't to hit as hard as you can. The guys in the middle seem to have some tough forearms because they are going at it hard. It looks like they are trying to hit as hard as they can but they aren't.

This is the same thing, but this is what you would look like if your arms aren't conditioned. The fists shouldn't be closed and the hand should be relaxed. The purpose is to condition the bone and not the muscle

This guy explains the concept of bone conditioning the way that my Sifu taught me.

JoGaWolf,

These are some interesting videos. I remember talking to one guy about some traditional Muay Thai shin and arm conditioning and how their practitioners first whack their shins and arms on banana tree trunks, gradually reducing sensitivity of the bone and then move off to harder material. He also said that the end result is that some nerves are damaged in the process that render their shins (and other bones) insensitive to blows.

I thought I'd mention it to you. That is something I would not want to do under any circumstances, not even for Iron Palm training

 

[Argus]

Forearm conditioning is vital in my style of Kung Fu where we use our forearm to attack and defend. In fact we don't have to punch or kick a person to hurt them. Our blocks can hurt someone just the same, making the person less willing to throw another punch or kick. If your forearms aren't conditioned then someone like me will attack your forearm when you punch. Karate does a lot of this as well.

I guess from a WC perspective it seems rather odd to me. I practice remaining soft and yielding -- especially if motion is directed towards my arms, and not towards me. If the threat isn't directed at me, why try to block it?

That's not to say that it's a bad technique. I'm sure attacking the arms is quite useful against someone more rigid and tense, or against, say, a knife wielding opponent. But I think it's quite hard to injure a person's arms with your own if they're relaxed and not swinging or blocking with blunt motions, but rather maintain more acute angles. Moreover, by chasing their hands, you potentially expose yourself to a counter.

But, I'm just speaking from my experience in Wing Chun, and training with a few Karateka. I've never met a hung-gar practitioner, so I might be quite surprised.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Tiger Crane
Traditional Muay Thai shin and arm conditioning and that is completely different from the way that we condition in Jow Ga. We condition by lightly tapping and never hitting hard. It doesn't take much to impact the bone. Anyone that has ever bumped their shin against a table knows first hand that you don't have to hit hard to make that bone hurt.

The way our school conditions allows us to keep the sensitivity and protects our nevers. If a fly lands on my forearm I still feel it. I still feel the impact on my skin but I don't feel pain in my bone the same way because my bone is denser and not because my nerves are damaged. I still feel things in my bone if hit something harder than my bone

I don't do the Iron Palm training because my Sifu said that the training is very specific and if I do it wrong I could literally go mentally crazy if I damage the meridians in the hands by not doing the training correctly.

I'm like you, no martial art is worth damaging the nerves and I wouldn't do the Jow Ga conditioning if that was the case. The hardest thing that we ever hit is either someone's arm or shin. If I were to do Iron Palm training then it would be with direct guidance from my Sifu or a Sifu that knows the risks of it and very few do.

 

[Tez3]

It doesn't take much to impact the bone. Anyone that has ever bumped their shin against a table knows first hand that you don't have to hit hard to make that bone hurt.

On another thread I was talking about the injuries I'd seen in MMA fights and that the worst I'd seen live was a broken leg, this was an impact shin on shin when both fighters were kicking. A very big ouch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess from a WC perspective it seems rather odd to me. I practice remaining soft and yielding -- especially if motion is directed towards my arms, and not towards me. If the threat isn't directed at me, why try to block it?

That's not to say that it's a bad technique. I'm sure attacking the arms is quite useful against someone more rigid and tense, or against, say, a knife wielding opponent. But I think it's quite hard to injure a person's arms with your own if they're relaxed, and by chasing their hands, you potentially expose yourself to a counter.

But, I'm just speaking from my experience in Wing Chun, and training with a few Karateka. I've never met a hung-gar practitioner, so I might be quite surprised.

The pain is the same regardless of if you are relaxed or not. WC also conditions the forearms. The most popular and recognized method WC uses is the wooden dummy.

 

[tigercrane]

Tiger Crane
Traditional Muay Thai shin and arm conditioning and that is completely different from the way that we condition in Jow Ga. We condition by lightly tapping and never hitting hard. It doesn't take much to impact the bone. Anyone that has ever bumped their shin against a table knows first hand that you don't have to hit hard to make that bone hurt.

The way our school conditions allows us to keep the sensitivity and protects our nevers. If a fly lands on my forearm I still feel it. I still feel the impact on my skin but I don't feel pain in my bone the same way because my bone is denser and not because my nerves are damaged. I still feel things in my bone if hit something harder than my bone

I don't do the Iron Palm training because my Sifu said that the training is very specific and if I do it wrong I could literally go mentally crazy if I damage the meridians in the hands by not doing the training correctly.

I'm like you, no martial art is worth damaging the nerves and I wouldn't do the Jow Ga conditioning if that was the case. The hardest thing that we ever hit is either someone's arm or shin. If I were to do Iron Palm training then it would be with direct guidance from my Sifu or a Sifu that knows the risks of it and very few do.

Agree 100% with your Sifu on the risk of potential pressure point activation. That's probably why this guy in the video would duly need to give some caution for those who follow him.

On the side note, Jow Ga is an intriguing offshoot of Hung Ga..but that's off-topic of course.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On another thread I was talking about the injuries I'd seen in MMA fights and that the worst I'd seen live was a broken leg, this was an impact shin on shin when both fighters were kicking. A very big ouch.

Shin to Shin or Shin to Table is the worst lol.
I'm curious to know if those breaks occurred because of improper conditioning of the shin. They probably killed the nerves in their legs and that made them think that their shin was getting harder because they didn't feel the pain. They didn't realize the importance of increasing bone density. Even if my shins were conditioned the Jow Ga way, I would still be mindful of not going Shin to Shin with someone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree 100% with your Sifu on the risk of potential pressure point activation. That's probably why this guy in the video would duly need to give some caution for those who follow him.

On the side note, Jow Ga is an intriguing offshoot of Hung Ga..but that's off-topic of course.

The guy in the video "Jake" probably doesn't even know that there are dangers to iron palm training. All he sees is someone hitting their hand on something and thinks that's all that's to it. Not once have I seen anyone do Iron palm training the way he did it. I'm still trying to figure what the push-ups are for.

Jow GA is a combination of Hung Ga, Choy Ga, and Northern Shaolin fighting systems.

 

[Tez3]

Shin to Shin or Shin to Table is the worst lol.
I'm curious to know if those breaks occurred because of improper conditioning of the shin. They probably killed the nerves in their legs and that made them think that their shin was getting harder because they didn't feel the pain. They didn't realize the importance of increasing bone density. Even if my shins were conditioned the Jow Ga way, I would still be mindful of not going Shin to Shin with someone.

As far as I know the fighter with the broken didn't condition his legs and I know the other fighter doesn't, not many people do. I believe the Muay Thai people may but generally not anyone else. I think it was just a freak accident.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I use to do some of this "hardening"/"iron palm" conditioning with my Sanda Sifu. We were hitting trees and walls. And in the palm strikes it was not just the hit it was the sound the hit makes you were listening for, otherwise you would injure yourself. I could not hit the tree with my elbows, forearms, knees, or shins like he could but again it was a sound, but I still could not get myself to do it.

Per my second Xingyiquan sifu; one of his teachers was big on forearm hardening and he also hit trees, but I was also told his arms looked a little like scar tissue. My Xingyi sifu did not hit trees, he hit a heavy bag and he could hit pretty hard as well as take a darn good hit.

Per my taijiquan sifu: none of this is necessary, you will do just fine with stick, sticky and follow. But that too is something you need to work on

 

[Argus]

The pain is the same regardless of if you are relaxed or not. WC also conditions the forearms. The most popular and recognized method WC uses is the wooden dummy.

The purpose of the dummy in WC is not to condition the arms, but to practice position and structure. Ideally, one shouldn't be crashing into the dummy arms, but subtly deflecting and/or sliding past them. At least, that has been my instructors' take.

Granted, I think one naturally builds up a certain amount of conditioning even through normal practice. And, the dummy, even played properly and lightly, probably still helps some as well.

As for the pain being the same whether or not you're relaxed -- I don't find that to be the case. Tense your arm, holding it rigidly, and strike it. Now, extend your arm and maintain a soft composure, and allow it to be moved on the strike. Far less force will be transferred directly into the bone and tissue in the second case.

Or, try this: get a stick, and two coconuts. First, secure a coconut to a table, and strike it. Next, throw a coconut in the air, and strike it. You'll find it far harder to transfer force into breaking the one that you threw into the air, because it is not braced rigidly, but is allowed to be moved, absorbing energy. Only with a very fast and relaxed strike can you transfer energy into actually breaking it. It can be done, but it's far more difficult.