Krabi Krabong USA

[destructautomaton]

going through everything it seems there is a difference between going through the system as a combative vehicle and as a phys ed type of route what would be some of the things one would look for because its hard to see since one system seems to prevail and the other forgotten or lost or hidden........

 

[Fede]

Thank you for the explanation, Vincent. I understand this principle better now.

Yes there are many sword systems in Thailand, the risk to see one forgotten over the other is always there. These systems were passed on because it meant survival at the time. Now what is being passed on is Phys Ed because....it is education for the schools and universities. A good thing, but far and different from the old systems which have the original survival/combative aspects integrated in them.

I think old sword systems will stay in the shade unless Tony Jaa decides to make a new Ong Bak focusing on Thai swords. I can guarantee that if he did that, masters would pop up all around out of nowhere and for the usual trivial purposes.

 

[destructautomaton]

great point, fede,its always some film or something that sends the interest soaring, a film by tony jaa on weapons not only would be amazing but would spark interest like crazy......lets hope that actually happens

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Deciphering the different forms of kk, as destructautomaton asks, you look first at the overall structure of the teaching syllabus. You will see a great amount of combative utility stripped away in the phys ed courses(although the veneer or presentation might be rough and tumble or tough, taught by a military person or done in a temple or whatever). There will be a general focus on "forms" or dancing the weapon and doing repetitive two man drills(and you will see competitions for that throughout the year as well). Presentation and accuracy of presentation is paramount along with aesthetics. You will have a great structure and progressive learning map well laid out for teaching and training. We sometimes refer to this new format of training krabi krabong as new kk, as opposed to old or functional combative kk, to help distinguish it further.

In the phys ed format as well, the live steel, especially sharpened steel are generally not stressed and there will be a exchange of using wood mostly then steel later (as well as for demos), no actual test cutting or learning to cut into, through and at a person and how to develop and those shots along with dealing with blood and killing will be discussed or demonstrated. In combative kk, forms are much later in the training and are used for presentation at special events but mostly for centering(meditative), footwork and the many footwork patterns are stressed, stance and guardwork, high to low patterns, learning to deal and handle a real steel sword, drilling on developing speed and power, generally targeting right away is to disable or kill the opponent, the mind set and meditations that lead one to survive a combative situation, two man is less what i call "riding the rails" where two people face off and go back and forth and striking into a sword is rarely seen, the combative footwork patterns are stressed within those drills and they tend to be shorter and more explosive.

Thats a general overview of course there are different systems and training evolutions for each. Some phys ed might incorporate a bit more of the contact side especially in the college courses where they will actually spar like in the combative form. Likewise you might see the use of "soft" swords or wood covered with form, in combative forms to teach the eye shots and various other sensitive target shots, and any other shots that cant realistically be practiced into the target with wood or steel.

Its impossible to condense all this down into something overly simplistic since the role and evolution of phys ed-- what it means and how it is interpreted by the Thais and the thai teaching system is important to understand as much as the training itself and why combative has been pushed out and away much like the earlier bare knuckle systems were generally abandoned in the face of the new evolution toward ring Muay Thai. We see this new format of old muay forms known as muay boran in the same light, where aesthetics and presentation are paramount over fighting, understanding utility or function preparations. Even within the authentic systems or surviving systems like muay chaiya, we see they have abandoned any type of function or competing to strangely fight over aesthetics, hierarchy of teachers, and exact replicas of movements without any life or force thus antiquing the system. I mention this only because these are recent things in muay and muay boran and its something that has already happened to kk and the old weapons systems so much so that one cant even tell anymore whats real.

We would have to go into a system by system analysis to show the very intricate differences which once shown in detail will produce an enormous amount of clarity and understanding.

 

[destructautomaton]

I see how its really difficult to get the insight needed to see this without being involved from sort of the inside I do appreciate the insights because it does help alot to look at things in a different light so to speak. thanks for taking the time to answer my question!

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, its very twisted, you want to go with the modality that emphasizes what you are doing. if you want to fight with it, spar and use it for function then you need to stress the combative systems, if you try to bend the phys ed systems you are twisting it so outside the realm because its targeting and two man drills and its structure are so different that you are just trying to validate a point that doesnt match the intention and creation of the very system(which is what you see alot these days). Thats another point to watch for, someone saying they fight with it, then not using any of it because essentially they really cant. Once i saw the functional side of things it became easier to use it, not only to use but to see the links between the older bare hand tactics and the principles that lead and bled into muay thai. You cant see those dimensions and those links anymore from phys ed, its too blurred and moved away from the primal source and teachings. Theres nothing wrong with either method or doing both or just doing phys ed but i learned both and thats how i came to these ideas, not from conjecture, or my teacher told me or whatever, from experience so you can extract from that what you will and hope it helps you on your journey.

 

[destructautomaton]

thanks again for taking the time to write, you definitely provided a tremendous amount of food for thought on the topic for me as i want togo to thailand to train in a few months and want to experience the different ways myself. i think your experience shows in the clearness of your work and your passions for it, i reread the vanishingflame reports as much as i can and the various dvds, it shows a staggering amount of training and research over many years, do you think in the end people will be open to understanding the different ways or is it just too much politics involved at this point/

fede--i know you train and live in thailand from time to time, do you feel in your training you are getting the deeper methodstoo from your teachers since i feel they are teaching you all this or at least understand this better than me

 

[Fede]

Hi DA,

that's cool you want to go to Thailand, good luck with that!

I have one teacher in Thailand, and yes I feel I have known more and more. I never learned dances, first the grid to learn the solid steps. Then techniques, the movements. and the last time I was there I learned what to do with a sword, the real usage or one way of using it in that aspect. I "died" many times, it never lasted long!

But when I look at Vincent's posts I can see how much more there still is to learn, I do not know if my teacher knows that combative taining but I wouldn't be surprised if he does since he learned the true material with old masters among the hills.

Thanks a lot for your posts Vincent, there is a gulf between the two ways of training. I see what you say with the bending of a system and trying to make it fit, it's like trying to open a lock with the wrong key.

 

[destructautomaton]

Hi fede, i always wanted to go but this thread definitely sparked the need in me to do it now! So much of this information is just so hard to obtain and here its clear sighted and much easier to understand, i can at least begin the journey with a great deal of insight than i had before.

 

[Fede]

Well, you have more insights than what I had the time I first went to train in Thailand. Not that I didn't have good info, but it wasn't as much as it has been given here on the forum.

I am glad I can contribute with some info of my own experience, it's just a little thing but it's a lot compared to where I was when I first started learning. I want to learn and learn, that's always an ongoing process!

 

[destructautomaton]

Thanks, Fede I appreciate your help as well as the others. I am hoping to go in december so i am working on my options. i think also some of the threads went missing or else its just me? Was hoping for some more updates on the krabi krabong usa etc.

 

[Fede]

No, the forum had some problems and some threads have been lost.

Good luck for your trip to Thailand.

 

[BigWilliam]

Thank you, I really appreciate reading everyone’s contributions to this thread. The interest in, and knowledge of KK in its various forms is very refreshing.

I just wanted to share a few picts of one of our sparring sessions but since I apparently can’t post photos here I’ll add a link to another forum where they are posted. Since there may be differing thoughts on what we do, make of them what you will.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/33845-krabi-krabong-sparring.html

DA, wishing you the best of luck and safe travels if you are able to go.

Thanks,
[FONT=&quot]William

[/FONT]

 

[destructautomaton]

Thanks for the photos. Its like old school krabikrabong and what the dog brothers developed in their system with krabikrabong,they trailblazed that. unfortunately i dont see any interest on the various threads here or on other forums sadly for krabikrabong, even though the info is tremendously deep.

 

[sungkit]

Though I am not a practitioner of Krabi Krabong and do not live in the USA, I have found the information provided on this thread to be informative, interesting and helpful.

I am a practitioner of FMA having trained in Australia as well as the Philippines. However my housemate lived in Thailand for over a decade working and training in Muay Thai. Since I will be travelling there with him in April 2010 I would like to undertake some intensive training in an authentic combative system of Krabi Krabong and I would very much appreciate it if I could be pointed in the right direction to where this kind of training can be undertaken.

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Regards,

david

 

[BigWilliam]

Though I am not a practitioner of Krabi Krabong and do not live in the USA, I have found the information provided on this thread to be informative, interesting and helpful.

I am a practitioner of FMA having trained in Australia as well as the Philippines. However my housemate lived in Thailand for over a decade working and training in Muay Thai. Since I will be travelling there with him in April 2010 I would like to undertake some intensive training in an authentic combative system of Krabi Krabong and I would very much appreciate it if I could be pointed in the right direction to where this kind of training can be undertaken.

Thanks and Happy New Year to all!

Regards,

david

David,

Did you make it to train in Thailand? If you did, can you share your experiences with us?



Best regards,
William

 

[BigWilliam]

Well, I have finally got around to start building a Krabi Krabong resource page. If anyone has info about schools, instructors, videos, or articles about KK they would like to be included please email or PM me the details. I'm looking to add any and all resources from the U.S. and abroad.


Best regards,
William

 

[destructautomaton]

this was recently posted by steven wilson could you tell us what the heck it means??
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
is this serious or some kind of a joke? i mean if unity is the key why would somebody bother when this stuff is being circulated and sent around? also who is he calling a poser? appreciate the convo here but am confused about all of what is happening

 

[Fede]

I believe it is all phys ed stuff with the military signing certificates.... I mean, why would they sign them if it wasn't phys ed??

I also read of people saying that this or that teacher is the last remaining master
of KK....first of all, there are many indigenous systems in Thailand, and there are teachers who are still active including some old masters. So how come did I read about "last remaining masters" of "lost heritage"? There are specific lineages so there is no mistake about who is who and who learned what with whom, and I believe-I didn't do my homework on it-that these teachers would be recognized as true and legit even by the military, without needing their certificates.

 

[BigWilliam]

this was recently posted by steven wilson could you tell us what the heck it means??
Krabi-Krabong, unlike muay Thai, is a war art. As such, it is vitally important that no posers try to teach. Each licensed instructor will have certification signed by officials of the Ministry of Education and the representative of the Thai Army. It is too dangerous to allow anyone unlicensed to teach weapons, and quite possibly could be considered fraud or a 'bunko' scheme by state attorneys general.
is this serious or some kind of a joke? i mean if unity is the key why would somebody bother when this stuff is being circulated and sent around? also who is he calling a poser? appreciate the convo here but am confused about all of what is happening

Where and when was this posted? I'm curious, Steve has never said anything like this to me. In my experience he has always been very open and inclusive.


Best regards,
William