Kotegaeshi with a difference

drop bear

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Yeah, or around the side, but that's just the same as trying to get in a hook to the jaw, so far as the boxer's concerned. And his shoulder is probably up in the way.

Judo chop them straight down would probably slip through. It is pretty small
 

drop bear

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This is a serious question @Martial D (and don't get bent outta shape and all your being got at personally) would you recognize in a fight any Aiki ? ...or any of the techniques contained within Aikido (not being nasty) as you are basing everything on what you are seeing in the demo and dojo vids... if the opponent is a trained MA then you are very unlikely to see the flowing classical things you are basing all your comments on as that will not work at all. To complicated in part and require a heck of a lot of set up.

Think on this if you go for say a tech that require you to have full control of the arm elbow wrist etc etc etc (doesn't matter what really) and the opponent resists you relax somewhat and don't meet that resistance with a trial of strength (as in if you are stronger than your opponent -and yes I have been in situations when in normal everyday life I would and knew I was stronger and would be able to overpower the person that way but when the person was all wound up and the blood was up and the adrenaline flowing he did have extra in the locker so to speak- ) you redirect that use his resistance against him and flow into another tech then that is Aiki, you have blended with him not met force with force and used what he was doing against him,

Now again in fights would you be able to spot that as you think and have a very closed off mind towards Aikido, There is very little in Aikido that involves just pure strength as if it did then even in a dojo with a compliant partner a little guy would not be able to throw the big guys the way they can (and you will say oh the uke is flipping over on purpose helping nage and literally jumping and in public demos you are prob right up to a point) it is he is redirecting the force used against him (yes the turns and the pivots etc) to allow him to throw (if you really know what you are looking for then you can spot a mile of when that is happening and uke is not just flipping over - the ukes feet give that away - that said he as he knows what is coming will try to get into a position of least resistance for (a) to be a good uke and (b) cause he doesn't want to get hurt - again you can if you know what you are looking for tell if it the nage who is throwing or the uke that is flipping -that is all dojo classical stuff ) In a real situation it is unlikely you will see the big flow and the impressive throws and flip overs as those only happen in dojo set up and if both uk and nage know what they are doing.

Also and yes this a bit Hollywood but hopefully it will illustrate a point ... a guy comes semi head down running at you in say a bar while you standing there he gonna try in effect rugby tackle you ...now you are stationary and he has momentum thereby he has built up some form of "power and strength" yes you could meet that head on if you are wanting engage him and roll with him (that could actually be described as kinda Aiki depending how skilled you are and that I would say no Aikidoka necessarily will be, a JJ, Bjj guy may well be an Aikidoka does not want to go to ground as that is not his/her strength) however if you pivot move of his line redirect him (and redirect doesn't always mean different direction) and assist him head on into the wall or the bar or even the folks behind you then that is Aiki you have blended by moving and not met force with force and used his force against him ( also on the way past you can apply atemi) that leads me on to the randori vid lol that exercise is not only to do with putting folks on their behinds or slamming them or hammering them down it is to build up the Aiki as in the blending the moving the redirecting of force and also the looking for the openings if they are there and when they are there to apply any tech and that could be just to move out the way (yes simple but effective) or to redirect into one of the other dudes coming at you from the other side ... and there by as well as building up the Aiki side it is building up your spacial awareness and the total scene.

Yes to most the many running about like idiots, trying to grab etc the nage looks like to some as the palour tricks in vids (like you see Ueshiba do and Shioda do) that has nothing to do with them trying to look like super beings at all absolutely not lol all it is showing is if you know how to apply Aiki and blend and redirect then you can throw off many and not by pure strength ...also the demos you see with Ueshiba with a jo and folks holding on to it then he throws them ...that is not fighting tech lol that is again Aiki principles and allowing him to throw ...nothing to do with a real life situation just showing what is possibly if you apply Aiki and not ever intended as the look of the super human. Also the vid when Shioda made RFK's bodyguard look a dork ...all Shioda did was drop his centre use the position of strength he was in use the weakness of the body guard (he was in socks and pants on mats there by his purchase was not ideal he was bigger than shioda so to get the leverage he was looking for from pure strength he had to try and go low and that was his downfall Shioda dropped his centre and merely used what he was given to his advantage lol...no big secret mystery at all he blended with what he was given and achieved the result.

Aikido is and never was an Art that meets things directly head on and the peace love and harmony bit is rooted in oomoto but with slightly different ideas of what all that means than the normal westerner would take it as ...jee even I 35 years ago thought hmmm how can slamming a person into a mat show any of that or how can trying to break an elbow be close to that , but from the founders outlook and his philosophy it is lol, also do note that latterly he really did go deep into oomoto hence why his early deshi have a different take on things and even they in later life changed as Ueshiba kinda intended you can practice Aikido from 10 to 100 and still get Aikido and to take the ideas into everyday life , ok many do not want to do that or miss that bit or gloss over it but it there Aiki is not just about combat lol it is about way more ... and that is up to the student if he or she chooses to go the whole path or not.

Every person everyday uses Aiki at some point it is just called different names and it is assumed that Aiki is purely martial arts ...it isn't and never was lol just it is associated with them almost exclusively and especially in the west

What I don't get is I can't see how you would understand aiki without training live. Because that is where the understanding of timing and the nuances of body live.

So even from a purely academic stand point I don't think aikido are using the right tools to understand aikido.



MEDIA=youtube]l_KsW_tL9Ng[/MEDIA]
 
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What I don't get is I can't see how you would understand aiki without training live. Because that is where the understanding of timing and the nuances of body live.

So even from a purely academic stand point I don't think aikido are using the right tools to understand aikido.

sort off and I get that from your standpoint

the randori is one way as well it can get way more serious than you'll ever see a vid made of lol

Oh mant ...myself included coud spend a lifetime trying to get Aiki "right" and never master it lol... but it the path you take to get there and how you choose to move on that path has an effect on your abilities ...

also you could take ten guys train them the same ...same dojo same instructors et al and get 10 different results so there really is no standard way to approach Aiki you can try teach it and give the principles and get them to train but if they just don't get the feel or the rest then it will never work
 

drop bear

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sort off and I get that from your standpoint

the randori is one way as well it can get way more serious than you'll ever see a vid made of lol

Oh mant ...myself included coud spend a lifetime trying to get Aiki "right" and never master it lol... but it the path you take to get there and how you choose to move on that path has an effect on your abilities ...

also you could take ten guys train them the same ...same dojo same instructors et al and get 10 different results so there really is no standard way to approach Aiki you can try teach it and give the principles and get them to train but if they just don't get the feel or the rest then it will never work

There are greater and lesser effects from training. But they are not random. A good process will have a consistant result.

If you are getting any old result. Especially if you are looking for something like aiki. You are training the wrong thing. And all you are noticing is that peoples natural abilities are different.

So If I taught 10 people to play chess by making them swim. Then yes the ten people would have different outcomes.
 
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There are greater and lesser effects from training. But they are not random. A good process will have a consistant result.

If you are getting any old result. Especially if you are looking for something like aiki. You are training the wrong thing. And all you are noticing is that peoples natural abilities are different.

I haven't explained what I meant clearly ...let me have a ponder and I'll get back to you

So If I taught 10 people to play chess by making them swim. Then yes the ten people would have different outcomes.
 

Martial D

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You misunderstand, you see? It's a way of controlling, neutralizing, immobilizing, throwing etc people who attack you without having violent feelings and without using violent methods. But the results on the attacker are usually very violent and destructive...
So, don't get confused. The of blending, harmonizing with the attacker instead of violently colliding with him doesn't mean that he remains unharmed if he is at the receiving end of an Aikido technique. On the contrary, most of the times he will be injured while the aikidoka keeps his calm state of mind...
Of course, according to the nature of the attack and your opponent's reaction to your technique, there is a possibility that you can neutralize someone without serious injury using Aikido, but that is not always the case...
Look man, I think my opinion on the matter is pretty clear at this point, so I'm going to leave the dead horse be for now.

I've put in the legwork here, visited all three aikido places within driving distance of me, scoured the net, and regularly spar with a shodan that trains in my MMA group. All I've found are guys that won't go live, found countless examples of aikidoka getting handled, and learned that the aikido stuff Mr shodan has don't work at full speed if I try to stop them. Granted he may suck, the studios I went to may be mcdojos, and maybe there is other evidence of what you say vis a vis effectiveness. I'll grant you these maybes because I'm not omnicient, just as I grant the religious folks a maybe.

I do find it a little odd that nobody uses such a potentially devastating stand up grappling style in MMA even though all the techniques are legal, but I'll grant you there may be reasons for that too.
 

Martial D

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This is a serious question @Martial D (and don't get bent outta shape and all your being got at personally) would you recognize in a fight any Aiki ? ...or any of the techniques contained within Aikido (not being nasty) as you are basing everything on what you are seeing in the demo and dojo vids... if the opponent is a trained MA then you are very unlikely to see the flowing classical things you are basing all your comments on as that will not work at all. To complicated in part and require a heck of a lot of set up.

Think on this if you go for say a tech that require you to have full control of the arm elbow wrist etc etc etc (doesn't matter what really) and the opponent resists you relax somewhat and don't meet that resistance with a trial of strength (as in if you are stronger than your opponent -and yes I have been in situations when in normal everyday life I would and knew I was stronger and would be able to overpower the person that way but when the person was all wound up and the blood was up and the adrenaline flowing he did have extra in the locker so to speak- ) you redirect that use his resistance against him and flow into another tech then that is Aiki, you have blended with him not met force with force and used what he was doing against him,

Now again in fights would you be able to spot that as you think and have a very closed off mind towards Aikido, There is very little in Aikido that involves just pure strength as if it did then even in a dojo with a compliant partner a little guy would not be able to throw the big guys the way they can (and you will say oh the uke is flipping over on purpose helping nage and literally jumping and in public demos you are prob right up to a point) it is he is redirecting the force used against him (yes the turns and the pivots etc) to allow him to throw (if you really know what you are looking for then you can spot a mile of when that is happening and uke is not just flipping over - the ukes feet give that away - that said he as he knows what is coming will try to get into a position of least resistance for (a) to be a good uke and (b) cause he doesn't want to get hurt - again you can if you know what you are looking for tell if it the nage who is throwing or the uke that is flipping -that is all dojo classical stuff ) In a real situation it is unlikely you will see the big flow and the impressive throws and flip overs as those only happen in dojo set up and if both uk and nage know what they are doing.

Also and yes this a bit Hollywood but hopefully it will illustrate a point ... a guy comes semi head down running at you in say a bar while you standing there he gonna try in effect rugby tackle you ...now you are stationary and he has momentum thereby he has built up some form of "power and strength" yes you could meet that head on if you are wanting engage him and roll with him (that could actually be described as kinda Aiki depending how skilled you are and that I would say no Aikidoka necessarily will be, a JJ, Bjj guy may well be an Aikidoka does not want to go to ground as that is not his/her strength) however if you pivot move of his line redirect him (and redirect doesn't always mean different direction) and assist him head on into the wall or the bar or even the folks behind you then that is Aiki you have blended by moving and not met force with force and used his force against him ( also on the way past you can apply atemi) that leads me on to the randori vid lol that exercise is not only to do with putting folks on their behinds or slamming them or hammering them down it is to build up the Aiki as in the blending the moving the redirecting of force and also the looking for the openings if they are there and when they are there to apply any tech and that could be just to move out the way (yes simple but effective) or to redirect into one of the other dudes coming at you from the other side ... and there by as well as building up the Aiki side it is building up your spacial awareness and the total scene.

Yes to most the many running about like idiots, trying to grab etc the nage looks like to some as the palour tricks in vids (like you see Ueshiba do and Shioda do) that has nothing to do with them trying to look like super beings at all absolutely not lol all it is showing is if you know how to apply Aiki and blend and redirect then you can throw off many and not by pure strength ...also the demos you see with Ueshiba with a jo and folks holding on to it then he throws them ...that is not fighting tech lol that is again Aiki principles and allowing him to throw ...nothing to do with a real life situation just showing what is possibly if you apply Aiki and not ever intended as the look of the super human. Also the vid when Shioda made RFK's bodyguard look a dork ...all Shioda did was drop his centre use the position of strength he was in use the weakness of the body guard (he was in socks and pants on mats there by his purchase was not ideal he was bigger than shioda so to get the leverage he was looking for from pure strength he had to try and go low and that was his downfall Shioda dropped his centre and merely used what he was given to his advantage lol...no big secret mystery at all he blended with what he was given and achieved the result.

Aikido is and never was an Art that meets things directly head on and the peace love and harmony bit is rooted in oomoto but with slightly different ideas of what all that means than the normal westerner would take it as ...jee even I 35 years ago thought hmmm how can slamming a person into a mat show any of that or how can trying to break an elbow be close to that , but from the founders outlook and his philosophy it is lol, also do note that latterly he really did go deep into oomoto hence why his early deshi have a different take on things and even they in later life changed as Ueshiba kinda intended you can practice Aikido from 10 to 100 and still get Aikido and to take the ideas into everyday life , ok many do not want to do that or miss that bit or gloss over it but it there Aiki is not just about combat lol it is about way more ... and that is up to the student if he or she chooses to go the whole path or not.

Every person everyday uses Aiki at some point it is just called different names and it is assumed that Aiki is purely martial arts ...it isn't and never was lol just it is associated with them almost exclusively and especially in the west

That is how reasonable people respond. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

Since you've finally managed civility, I'll respond in kind. First, you've asked several times about my training history. I've discussed this at some length here in the past so I'll just give you the cliff notes.

Started with Wing Chun some 25 years ago, Sam Kwok lineage, and have carried that on to this day. I also boxed a lot a a local club throughout my teens. I got into bjj some years later, as well as Mui Thai, in the days before they called it MMA. My outside training dropped off for a couple years until I started training at the pool house. Basically a bunch of MMA and karate guys that got together for hard sparring twice a week.

Now, at 41, I train an hour of Dutch style muithai followed by a half hour of submission grappling(basically wrestling and bjj together) 4 nights a week, and focus on my personal synthesis of MMA and Wing Chun Fridays and Sundays for an hour or so each with my bob and my wife(I get her to hold pads and the shield for me(she is becoming quite the little kickboxers too).
Over all that time I've also done 'this and that' but not enough I'd say I practice those systems.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about aikido on any sort of intimate level, but I never claimed to. I'm just a student of the fight game with a very critical eye, and a constant desire to get an edge on my skills game.

I WANT you to be right. I just need evidence before I can come on board.
 
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That is how reasonable people respond. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

Since you've finally managed civility, I'll respond in kind. First, you've asked several times about my training history. I've discussed this at some length here in the past so I'll just give you the cliff notes.

Started with Wing Chun some 25 years ago, Sam Kwok lineage, and have carried that on to this day. I also boxed a lot a a local club throughout my teens. I got into bjj some years later, as well as Mui Thai, in the days before they called it MMA. My outside training dropped off for a couple years until I started training at the pool house. Basically a bunch of MMA and karate guys that got together for hard sparring twice a week.

Now, at 41, I train an hour of Dutch style muithai followed by a half hour of submission grappling(basically wrestling and bjj together) 4 nights a week, and focus on my personal synthesis of MMA and Wing Chun Fridays and Sundays for an hour or so each with my bob and my wife(I get her to hold pads and the shield for me(she is becoming quite the little kickboxers too).
Over all that time I've also done 'this and that' but not enough I'd say I practice those systems.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about aikido on any sort of intimate level, but I never claimed to. I'm just a student of the fight game with a very critical eye, and a constant desire to get an edge on my skills game.

I WANT you to be right. I just need evidence before I can come on board.


Ok no issues

As I said maybe seeing where aiki is going on is not apparent in other situations or fights and I have always sais that the classical Aikdo from the dojo does not essentially work however the principles do and you from your back ground will most likely use them just think of them in different ways

I hold two Aikido ranks from different places they are not that high but I have studied Aikido for 35 years and wel it has been good to me and yes I have used it
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Oh mant ...myself included coud spend a lifetime trying to get Aiki "right" and never master it lol...
If a new student asks you the following questions, what will be your answer?

- Why do you want to spend your life time to master Aiki?
- If fighting skill is your goal, will you take Aikido as your path?
 
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What make you to decide to take Aikido as your path? In other words, how will you convince a new student to take Aikido path?


I wouldn't convince or try to convince any body as that is not the way I work ...the choice is theirs alone.

Why did I chose Aikido ....that I could fill a book with really ...but personal development, the teacher (original one) the potential I saw in that art for me as a person and my own deeper reasons (which are my path)
 
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this is how to defeat any tech and is super technical and the guy is awesome he used every skill in the book and even showed respect after he won


 
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