Knife Violence As With All Violence You Are Probably On Your Own!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is a blog post with some video of a recent knife attack. Pretty disturbing
so do not watch the video embedded into the blog if you are not inclined to see someone injured.

The Instinctive Edge

Nasty business, real world violence is!

 

[arnisador]

Knife on the ground--very tough situation.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Knife on the ground--very tough situation.

Very, very tough situation as your mobility is restricted!

 

[Badger1777]

Forgive my ignorance, but what have we gained from this blog or the video in it?

It is just a video and write-up about someone getting attacked. It doesn't tell us why, how the man might have avoided it, what he could do about it or anything. The write up says its a pity the man doesn't know how to 'bump and roll', which is a worthless thing to say, because to many, 'bump and roll' means nothing. It's just gratituous violence for violence's sake. I see no lessons in any of that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That blog post is meant nothing more than to show "real knife violence" in an attack. It is incredibly important for people to understand what real violence looks like. It is not pretty, it is messy. The blog post itself was not mean to show awarenss, avoidance, or action on to deal with it. Other than yes people there is real violence out there! It did point out one simple fact. Your probably on your own in a violent encounter at least for awhile. Hope that helps!

 

[Badger1777]

That blog post is meant nothing more than to show "real knife violence" in an attack. It is incredibly important for people to understand what real violence looks like. It is not pretty, it is messy.

Fair point. I guess I'd overlooked the fact that some people will be fortunate enough to have never yet seen such vile situations. It sort of shocked me because at 40 and (I think) streetwise, I've seen this sort of thing all too often, but you're right, even in my martial arts class, it kind of worries me when some of the students (particularly the younger ones) are so full of confidence that their moves will always work.

Its like the other week, I was training 1 on 1 with a lad who is much younger than me, but much higher grade. He took out a rubber dagger, and showed me how he wanted me to attack him with it. I said "everyone knows how to defend against that move". "Oh really?" he asked, with a big grin, so I told him to attack me that way, I am a white belt. As he held the knife up, I rushed him, grabbed both his wrists and stuck my right foot behind his legs and pushed, all in one swift and rapid movement. I held him to stop him actually falling back, and didn't bother to explain that had I followed through, I would have fallen with him, using his stomach as cushion my knee from the floor. It might not be a formal move, but I've actually had to improvise for real in the past, and I know that works.

A couple more times, when I was attacking him in the way he asked me to attack, I'd get the angle wrong or something, and consequently his defence would fail, and he would tell me I'd done the attack wrong.

I have no doubt whatsoever that martial arts training will help in a real situation, but you're right, people need to know that when its real, club rules mean nothing. Martial arts is useful as a means of improving reflexes, stamina and flexibility etc, and 'muscle memory' will mean that any blocks and strikes you do are more likely to be executed well, but improvisation is one of the keys to walking away (or running away - I've fought for my life long enough to find the opportunity to leg it more than once).

 

[arnisador]

I like to get every piece of actual data I can, because I get more theory on how knife attacks really happen from classes, seminars, and the web than I know what to do with.

 

[K-man]

What I have found in all normal training against knife attacks is that the attack is always known and it is generally a big thrust or a big slash. That is understandable in the context of a three hour seminar. Reality is that a knife attack won't happen that way. It may be multiple thrusts or multiple short slashes but the chances of the arm being offered for you to grab it and perform a standard defence is as likely as winning a lottery. That is why, no matter how confident you are that you can disarm an attacker with a knife, the best course of action is Reebok Do.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Managed to hold him off for a bit though. One thing I would add when you are calling for help be specific. As soon as they have a knife let people know and Tell them what to do about it. That way you may get a better response from the crowd.

 

[Buka]

Back in the 70's there was a training video (VHS) they showed cops in the academy that I believe was called "Edged Weapons". It was mostly film footage of really nasty cuts and deaths. It had big shock value, especially to the younger cadets. I wish they still used it, because it stuck in the mind. (no pun intended) It was just plain nasty.

A friend of mine, Mark Human of South Africa, has developed a really nice course of "knife fighting while grappling". South Africa has become the murder by stabbing capital of the world. He works in the AMOK system and is a good grappler and damn good Martial Artist. The course covers how to access and draw your weapon from all places you might carry it, as well as the best way to defend on the ground. It covers positions from top, bottom and anywhere else that is common to scrambling and grappling. It also covers easiest and best targets of the body while in these positions. It's a tiring course, usually a day and a half. But it's a lot of fun and I found it to be very practical. He teaches a lot of military, cops and prison guards, but also does some dojo visits. If you ever see the course offered, I highly recommend it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Fair point. I guess I'd overlooked the fact that some people will be fortunate enough to have never yet seen such vile situations. It sort of shocked me because at 40 and (I think) streetwise, I've seen this sort of thing all too often, but you're right, even in my martial arts class, it kind of worries me when some of the students (particularly the younger ones) are so full of confidence that their moves will always work.

Its like the other week, I was training 1 on 1 with a lad who is much younger than me, but much higher grade. He took out a rubber dagger, and showed me how he wanted me to attack him with it. I said "everyone knows how to defend against that move". "Oh really?" he asked, with a big grin, so I told him to attack me that way, I am a white belt. As he held the knife up, I rushed him, grabbed both his wrists and stuck my right foot behind his legs and pushed, all in one swift and rapid movement. I held him to stop him actually falling back, and didn't bother to explain that had I followed through, I would have fallen with him, using his stomach as cushion my knee from the floor. It might not be a formal move, but I've actually had to improvise for real in the past, and I know that works.

A couple more times, when I was attacking him in the way he asked me to attack, I'd get the angle wrong or something, and consequently his defence would fail, and he would tell me I'd done the attack wrong.

I have no doubt whatsoever that martial arts training will help in a real situation, but you're right, people need to know that when its real, club rules mean nothing. Martial arts is useful as a means of improving reflexes, stamina and flexibility etc, and 'muscle memory' will mean that any blocks and strikes you do are more likely to be executed well, but improvisation is one of the keys to walking away (or running away - I've fought for my life long enough to find the opportunity to leg it more than once).

Badger good points.

A few years (decade?) ago I was in London Ontario on to teach a seminar on basic knife work. I was invited on the fly to stop by someone else's event at a different time as they were going to train there. The host a Vale Tudo instructor was gracious and let me a friend train together on his floor for the techniques he was teaching. During one such ground technique in guard, my friend asked if I still had my training knife in the front pocket of my jeans. I said yes, while trying to defend against his verbal distraction. He says, "See if you can pull and deploy it". I reply, "OK". As he knew where it was he worked hard to keep my right hand and arm busy. Eventually I was able to get my hands on the knife and pull. It is a Wave with a pocket catch so I was able to deploy on the pull even on the ground. The "SHINK" sound stopped everyone in the place and no one knew where it came from. It soon became obvious as my friend was doing everything in he could to stop me from stabbing him while I was on the bottom and at best in a half guard by know.

With the exception of the instructor everyone was in awe and could not believe that we would practice such techniques. I apologized as did my friend, yet the instructor just laughed and said, I wish more people were willing to see and try different things in all the ranges including grappling standing up and on the ground. He just shook his head, and told the rest that we were FMA practitioners and were practicing our variation of the move.

He did ask if anyone wanted to try it themselves. No one wanted too, even with a training blade in the folder. I will say the level of possible intended violence scared them and they ran away mentally.

Having been in situations where I was minutes from backup from fellow employees and further minutes for people to call the police and then further minutes for them to respond. (* Instant teleportation based upon my mental call still has not been invented yet today. And in the day when a Cell phone / Car phone was the size of two or three bricks and only criminals, wanna be criminals / people trying to impress and the few business men who used them, they were not around either.

The point I got from the video is that one needs to train that people will not help. One needs to think about what to do. The guy on the ground did not respond even when the other guy videoing was talking to him. The guys on the ground needed more verbal training. To call attention to situation. He needed to yell knife as well as dealing with it. My guess is that he tunnel visioned on the knife and while he was doing his best to survive there are things people can take away from this.

 

[ZapEm]

This video shows a lot of things, especially the limits of what you can prepare for with training.

If you don't see the knife until it's too late, you're stuffed.

Knives are extremely dangerous weapons even if you see them coming, because they give you lethal force. This is why radically different paradigms, from FMA to military knife fighting, will work. Knife fighting systems don't have to be good, for knives to work in fighting. Someone with no knife fighting system at all can be just as effective a knife fighter if they have lethal intent.

The nature of warfare is assymetrical, yet the paradigm you train for is probably a fair duel. For example, human beings have 2 arms and 2 legs and other similar physical features, so there must be a game theory "solution" to the problem of 2 human beings fighting that can determine who will win. That seems reasonable. However weapons belong to the theatre of warfare, not duels, because they introduce so many new considerations into the game that you can't even count them all let alone have a ready answer for them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Back in the 70's there was a training video (VHS) they showed cops in the academy that I believe was called "Edged Weapons". It was mostly film footage of really nasty cuts and deaths. It had big shock value, especially to the younger cadets. I wish they still used it, because it stuck in the mind. (no pun intended) It was just plain nasty.

A friend of mine, Mark Human of South Africa, has developed a really nice course of "knife fighting while grappling". South Africa has become the murder by stabbing capital of the world. He works in the AMOK system and is a good grappler and damn good Martial Artist. The course covers how to access and draw your weapon from all places you might carry it, as well as the best way to defend on the ground. It covers positions from top, bottom and anywhere else that is common to scrambling and grappling. It also covers easiest and best targets of the body while in these positions. It's a tiring course, usually a day and a half. But it's a lot of fun and I found it to be very practical. He teaches a lot of military, cops and prison guards, but also does some dojo visits. If you ever see the course offered, I highly recommend it.

Buka, sounds like your friends program is a good one. In IRT I have a similar program with grappling on the ground dealing with a knife as well as accessing your knife. I feel it is very, very important to train this way!

 

[jezr74]

In my time I've have been in two knife encounters and one firearm encounter. All three in my early twenties and teens.

My first knife encounter was on a train coming home from school I was in an altercation with a much older and bigger person (25ish) that resulted in being put in a head lock, I was around 14 at the time. It was not until after the incident was settled I was told by a friend that was there I had a large knife to my throat.

The second encounter some years later myself and 2 friends (early 20s) jumped a fence to a park\oval on the way to a pub and as we got to the middle of the field realized we had walked into the middle of a gang fight with two groups at each end of the park area and were moving in fast to scrap. After we had put the fight behind us by fighting our way through the roughly 60 teens, in what we can only describe as surreal, we got around a corner and under a street lamp we discovered, I was slashed\knicked on the forehead and my friend was stabbed through the ribs.

Both times I never saw the knife, and was quick and over in a few minutes. This was over 20 years ago and I don't think I was mature enough to understand the gravity of what happened, being young and invincible I didn't even take the encounters seriously, almost not believing that it could have been a much worse situation.

These days I'd have a different reckoning with an encounter, and I also think the potential brutality of an encounter has increased in the last 20 years as well.

 

[Buka]

Thank God you made it out okay. I hope your buddy recovered well.

 

[Hanzou]

This video just reiterates how learning to fight from your back is of vital importance.

 

[arnisador]

This video just reiterates how learning to fight from your back is of vital importance.

...but when the guy on top has a knife, it's a waaaaay different game than usual.

 

[Hanzou]

...but when the guy on top has a knife, it's a waaaaay different game than usual.

Not really. In training you're taught to control your attacker's arms and hands while they're on top you in order to assist in your transition. Even the guy in the video gripped his assailant's wrist a couple of times, but couldn't capitalize on it because he wasn't trained.

 

[arnisador]

Well, I don't agree with you on this one--I'll just say that.

 

[drop bear]

You want some sort of plan if they are on top. Of course a plan that puts you on top would be better.

Of course well rounded grappling skills does solve both problems as well as they can be solved.