Knife Techniques

[MJS]

What are your thoughts on knife techniques? Pretty much every art out there has them, but I'm looking to discuss the practicality of them. Do you feel, that under pressure, you're going to be able to pull off a technique or are you going to fall back on pieces of the technique as your defense? In your opinion, what are some of the best methods of defense that you've seen?

Mike

 

[Carol]

Personally I think in most live situations...knife or not... I would rely upon pieces of a technique. I want my defense to look like defense, not a fight.

 

[morph4me]

Knife techniques, any weapons techniques for that matter, should be a last resort. If your choices are get killed doing nothing, or get killed trying some sort of technique, I'll choose the technique every time. I think running away is the best technique against a knife, followed by finding something with a longer range keeping him away from you.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i recommend strongly against using a knife as a self-defense tool.

1. to use a knife effectively, you have to have the intent of killing. not everybody can do that.

2. any sort of knife you can carry is very short range. better to stay further away.

3. knife wounds look nasty in court later. the difference between self defense and aggravated assault sometimes depends on the jury.

4. cops often hate knives. they will be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt if they see that you cut somebody.

5. three words: aitch eye vee. getting bled on by drug users is not a good idea. (see also hepatitis)

i believe just as strongly in knife training. knowing how a knife is used is an important part of defending yourself against a knife. also, ten minutes of solid knife training will put the right amount of fear into you so you avoid knife people at all costs.

but don't carry a knife for self defense. carry an asp, a tactical flashlight, even a gun. canes are nice. or better yet, rely on your awareness and good sense.

 

[Carol]

But knife techniques aren't restricted to USING a knife correct? Aren't many knife techniques defenses AGAINST a knife? Those defenses do not require that you are personally armed.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

good point, carol. although really the only effective knife defense is rapid flight. i remember reading a study that a cop with his gun out will get cut if he let's a knife-wielding bad guy get within 12 feet.

that's a cop. with his gun out.

i enjoy training knife attacks and defenses. and (tip o' the hat to you, carol) FMA has some beautiful ones that feel like dancing. heck, i own several really nice knives.

but weilding or defending, the best advice on knives is not to get involved.

kind of like crazy womens that way -- i don't care how sexy they are, just stay away.

 

[Adept]

I believe MJS was actually asking us to discuss techniques for defence against a knife wielding opponent, although I could be wrong.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I believe MJS was actually asking us to discuss techniques for defence against a knife wielding opponent, although I could be wrong.

ya know, after a reread i think you're right.

against a knife i recommend the avoidance of injury through rapid flight.

seriously, though. teaching knife defenses can be dangerous -- creates a false sense of safety in a situation where leaving and leaving quickly is the best idea.

 

[Yari]

......? In your opinion, what are some of the best methods of defense that you've seen?

Mike

K.I.S = Keep it simple

By keeping the technique simple and usalable for any situation you greaten the changes of getting out of a confrontation with your life in tackt(sp?).

Nothing in life is 100% sure (expect three things: death, taxes and that things change). But by praticing you given your self a better change of deciding the outcome. And by using techniques that are simulair to your "daily" techniques, your empowering your outcome.

/yari

 

[searcher]

Yari is right, Keep It Short and Simple. I believe most techniques fail to take into account that you ARE going to get cut defending against a knife. If you want to test that out get some of those no'lie blades and go at it. I teach the techniques, but I always empgasize that the student will get cut defending against a knife. The whole key to knife defense is to minimize the level of damage that gets inflicted on you. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I teach to make no assumption at all. Realistically against the knife you are in a very, very dangerous place unless you can bring a better tool to bear. Getting away would always be the first option but in our world we all know that might not always be possible. With this is mind having some training that is simple yet effective can give you an edge. The reality of knife defense is that there are no absolutes. Some people have defended against a knife successfully without being cut and others have defended successfully while sustaining massive cuts. Even others have not defended successfully and have died. (god rest their souls)

With the above in mind find simple yet effective techniques that can be utilized with a tool or empty hand and train them religiously. Yet if you ever encounter a knife bearing attacker if you can get away do so, if you cannot then get a tool to equalize or help to equalize the situation. If either of those are impossible then protect yourself vigorously with your training and never assume anything.

 

[MJS]

Great replies everyone!:ultracool IMO, a technique is a tool that we have available to us. We learn blocks, punches and kicks, which when put together, create a technique. However, we shouldn't necessarily be bound by those moves. We should be able to adapt to the situation at hand. So, when we learn a knife technique, we're learning a series of moves, in the 'ideal phase' as we say in Kenpo. Everything is going our way! I think that many times, people tend to get so ingrained in that, that they forget that chances are, we only may pull off a portion of a move.

I agree, getting the heck away from the knife would be my first choice! If I have the chance to run, I'm taking it. Then of course, if the bad guy chases after us, well, looks like we have to resort to engaging. My next choice would be to pick something up to use as an equalizer. A belt, a chair, a rock, etc. something that I can use to throw, distract, or strike the attacker with. In the end, physically engaging would be the last resort. A simultaneous block/parry and counter strike is an option but I think that attempting to gain control of the arm is also important. Not an easy task, but is fighting someone with a knife easy?

I like the use of the no lie blades too!!

 

[MJS]

ya know, after a reread i think you're right.

against a knife i recommend the avoidance of injury through rapid flight.

seriously, though. teaching knife defenses can be dangerous -- creates a false sense of safety in a situation where leaving and leaving quickly is the best idea.

No worries. Seeing that you brought it up though, I started this thread for that discussion.

Mike

 

[tellner]

i recommend strongly against using a knife as a self-defense tool.

1. to use a knife effectively, you have to have the intent of killing. not everybody can do that.

True. A knife constitutes deadly force. If you haven't made The Decision (as the firearms types call it) you don't have any business using that tool. If you're serious about self defense against actual violent crime you really need to carefully consider The Decision and plan accordingly

2. any sort of knife you can carry is very short range. better to stay further away.

If someone is really trying to hurt you there are two possibilities. One is that they will stay far away. If they do and you are bigger than them, congratulations. You aren't in a fight. If they are bigger than you (more likely) and you stay out at range trying to play knuckle tag you will get beaten to death.

It's more likely that they'll get up close and personal. Everyone who tried to hurt me did unless they had a weapon that increased their range even more. And then you really want to be in close. To a great extent effective self defense begins when you stop saying "No. No. No. Stay away!" and switch to "Mother-lover!" (or something kind of like that) and show willing to tear their head off and beat them to death with it.

3. knife wounds look nasty in court later. the difference between self defense and aggravated assault sometimes depends on the jury.

4. cops often hate knives. they will be less likely to give you the benefit of the doubt if they see that you cut somebody.

You need to understand the law. You need to know what you are doing and why you are doing it. You need to be able to articulate it in court and defend it. But if the choice is dying now or possible legal trouble down the line you need to make a decision about which is more important. Personally, I'd rather be alive to deal with those problems later. If it's not a choice between that and dying or similar - being raped, having my house burned down around me, getting mugged, forcibly sodomized or forced into the trunk of a car - a knife is not the right tool. If it is, then even a two-inch blade is a great comfort.

5. three words: aitch eye vee. getting bled on by drug users is not a good idea. (see also hepatitis)

Getting HIV from having someone's dangly bits shoved into your bodily orifices is even worse. Getting shot, beaten to death or stabbed isn't very much fun either. Even getting into a fistfight can spread body fluids. If the situation has escalated to the point of deadly force you need to discount the possibility of blood-borne diseases a bit so that you can stay alive to deal with them. And if your measures mean that he is doing the bleeding and you aren't your chances of getting infected go down dramatically.

ibelieve just as strongly in knife training. knowing how a knife is used is an important part of defending yourself against a knife. also, ten minutes of solid knife training will put the right amount of fear into you so you avoid knife people at all costs.

but don't carry a knife for self defense. carry an asp, a tactical flashlight, even a gun. canes are nice. or better yet, rely on your awareness and good sense.

Yes, knives are effective. That's why people use them. "Ten minutes of solid knife training" is like saying "I've had ten solid minutes of boxing. I know I don't want to get punched". It doesn't amtter what you want. It's keeping them from getting what they want. If knives are that scary and effective in the bad guy's hands they are that scary and effective in yours. And they are likely to be legal in places where a gun or a collapsible baton will be a felony.

Like all tools knives are just tools. But in their proper place they are incredibly effective. And when they are the right tool for the job they will save your life.

 

[shesulsa]

All depends on the attacker. Some people feel 10 feet tall because they have a knife.

I remember an abduction case in California where a man pulled up to the curb where a woman was walking on the sidewalk alone. From the driver's seat he rolled down the passenger window and pointed a knife at her and told her to get in the car or he'd kill her. She did. *shakes head*

Knives are intimidating and rightly so. I expect to get cut badly if I'm ever in a knife fight. And techniques are ... well ... techniques. Any kind of attack, I think, you're going to piece together what works in the moment. Most attacks won't be neat and clean as is often practiced in the training hall.

Frankly, I'd really rather run away if it's a viable option in the situation than stand and fight someone with a knife. But if I have to ... well ... heh ... I think I'm going to piece together what will work at the moment.

We talk about flow - going from one technique into another or starting one and moving to another. I think the word "technique" is poorly understood or misunderstood as a mini-kata, linear in format with a beginning and an ending, but I think of "technique" more as an approach in application. So as the attacker switches hands or punches with his/her free hand, muscles to keep his/her weapon arm straight and moves it all over the place away from you ... it's the FLOW that matters.

But again ... Ni-Ke-Do is what I'm likin' the most.

 

[Blindside]

I think alot of curricullums are too prone to teach an ideal technique against a stupid/untrained attacker, and then leave it at that. I'll use kenpo as an example because it one of the main arts that I study. It has 5-10 defenses against a knife (depending on curricullum/lineage), all thrusts of some kind, no slashes. (That right there should be a screaming example of "I think something is missing.") All entries tend to be unique since the angles aren't really well covered in other aspects of the curricullum (except for some in clubs). I think many unarmed curricullums do not address the unique characteristics of a knife, or that habits ingrained dealing with an unarmed situation do not necessarily convert over to an armed one. I consider most kenpo knife techs to be more theoretical than practical. I'm also certainly not the only kenpoist to say this.

I'll contrast that with Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, the other main art that I study, and I have learned what are essentially three "finishes" for unarmed vs. knife, the entire rest of the Art is about getting to those three finishes against a guy who knows what to do with said knife. There is no "ideal technique" just the application of lots of drilling, sensitivity, muscle memory, and reference points. When you do get a typical kenpo tech line "untrained attack" it looks big, dumb, and slow.

I don't think training in the second manner gives you a false sense of security, rather you have "died" so many times in training that you should have a pretty good idea how difficult it is to deal with a knife.

Lamont

 

[tellner]

The danger with the other extreme is that you may scare the students too much. If they don't believe they have a chance they don't have a chance. Sailing between Scylla and Charybis is difficult.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Learning knife defence is always good to know. Just in case you can't run...have NO choice but to fight back...at least you know you have some options.

In the real world..you will be cut,stab, or killed. Best to avoid / run or use things on you or around to fight back with.

Most schools practice at a slower pace and familar place. Try practincing outside in the dim light, and have the attacker, attack you at full speed and there choice of attacks. (marker pens are good tools to use)

I think you will find.....most of you will lose.....Yes you can get lucky sometimes. But the odds are in flavor of the knife holder.

Many weapon defense techniques are similar to knife defense. So it is good to learn them. ..........We do.....but RUNNING AWAY is better, if faster than the attacker , does produce better results. ....Aloha