Kit Dale doesn't drill.

[JR 137]

Thanks for posting that - I'll have to go look for something on that.

Everything You Know About Muscle is Wrong

Reading between the lines near the beginning, where they’re talking about the relationship between posture and fascia, alludes to it in a way. Day to day posture is a muscle memory if you really think about it - certain things are contracted, others are relaxed, etc.

That was the MH article that lead me to the Stanford University article. A PT colleague had the article.

 

[Charlemagne]

If by "the rest" you mean everything beyond conscious/subconscious thought, yes, it does go well beyond that. It's all CNS (except the part about muscle development), but it's more complex than conscious vs. subconscious thought.

Of course, but that is where it begins, not in the muscle.

As for the article that was linked, he is talking about Stretch-Shortening Cycle, and the elastic properties of connective tissue, to include the fascia that surrounds the various layers of skeletal muscle, not some phenomenon where fascia is initiating movement. In addition, the article, at least the way it is reported, is correct that connective tissue is highly adaptable in regards to it's ability to change length and thickness. Many people discount this, but there are a number of studies which show this to be true. I use several of them in my teaching.

 

[punisher73]

The lie explaines the idea better than the truth. This happens sometimes.

I agree, but instead of saying "the lie", I would say the "concept". The term "muscle memory" is a concept of different factors that are not completely understood. That concept is helpful and useful to explain what is meant.

I first heard the term "muscle memory" in bodybuilding circles and it dealt with muscle that had atrophied due to lack of training were able to rebuild back to their former state much quicker that the initial training that it took to build the muscle to that point.

Later, I heard it applied to other learned motor functions as well and it did deal more with the neural pathways and the myelination process that "grooves" the action making it faster.

Going back to the Boyd's Cycle/OODA Loop and how this plays into things, is that because of repeat training, the time to go through the cycle/loop is almost instantaneous, the body "knows" what it needs to do and does it. Also, once the process becomes fully ingrained, it is also outside the adrenaline dump that effects fine motor skills (think combat pilots or special forces shooting, etc.)

To use an NLP model of it, there are four stages of learning that also summarize what people mean when they say "muscle memory".

Unconscious Incompetence: I don't even know what I don't know.
Conscious Incompetence: I am now aware of what I don't know.
Conscious Competence: I know and I can do it, but still have to think about it.
Unconscious Competence: I know it and I can do it, and I don't have to think about it.

Or as the old cliche goes, "you never forget how to ride a bike...."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

, it is also outside the adrenaline dump that effects fine motor skills

I wasn't aware of this. Do you happen to have some sources I can read?

 

[drop bear]

I agree, but instead of saying "the lie", I would say the "concept". The term "muscle memory" is a concept of different factors that are not completely understood. That concept is helpful and useful to explain what is meant.

I first heard the term "muscle memory" in bodybuilding circles and it dealt with muscle that had atrophied due to lack of training were able to rebuild back to their former state much quicker that the initial training that it took to build the muscle to that point.

Later, I heard it applied to other learned motor functions as well and it did deal more with the neural pathways and the myelination process that "grooves" the action making it faster.

Going back to the Boyd's Cycle/OODA Loop and how this plays into things, is that because of repeat training, the time to go through the cycle/loop is almost instantaneous, the body "knows" what it needs to do and does it. Also, once the process becomes fully ingrained, it is also outside the adrenaline dump that effects fine motor skills (think combat pilots or special forces shooting, etc.)

To use an NLP model of it, there are four stages of learning that also summarize what people mean when they say "muscle memory".

Unconscious Incompetence: I don't even know what I don't know.
Conscious Incompetence: I am now aware of what I don't know.
Conscious Competence: I know and I can do it, but still have to think about it.
Unconscious Competence: I know it and I can do it, and I don't have to think about it.

Or as the old cliche goes, "you never forget how to ride a bike...."

And I think the unconscious competence is the cycle he is trying to break.

And move on to next level stuff. Where they are moves ahead.

 

[Danny T]

Per Kit Dale:
“I feel that a lot of people have misunderstood a lot of what I have said in the past. I teach seminars now all over the world and a lot of my common feedback come from people who now realise what I meant, when I say “I don’t think people should drill”. Many people misunderstand me for saying “you can’t practice a technique”.

This is not correct. I say you shouldn’t drill techniques, but you can practice them. I encourage the practice of techniques, especially at the start as it’s a good way of opening someone’s minds to the possibility of solutions.

But drilling and practice are two different things.

Drilling is when one repeats a movement or technique, long after they are competent in the application of the technique. This creates muscle memory in the body (the ability to perform a movement on a sub-conscious level).

Practice is when you obtain not only the ability to perform the technique, but more importantly the understanding of the technique. Not just how the technique works but why, when and what to be careful of when applying the technique.

As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring and not just continued drilling.

The live situational sparring is by far the most important element to learning a technique as it forces people to apply it in real time against an unwilling opponent, rather than a compliant one. This helps the student develop the timing for the technique (which is much more important than the application). The timing is one of the most over looked element in jiu jitsu...."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And I think the unconscious competence is the cycle he is trying to break.

And move on to next level stuff. Where they are moves ahead.

Why would he want to stop being unconscious competent?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Per Kit Dale:
“I feel that a lot of people have misunderstood a lot of what I have said in the past. I teach seminars now all over the world and a lot of my common feedback come from people who now realise what I meant, when I say “I don’t think people should drill”. Many people misunderstand me for saying “you can’t practice a technique”.

This is not correct. I say you shouldn’t drill techniques, but you can practice them. I encourage the practice of techniques, especially at the start as it’s a good way of opening someone’s minds to the possibility of solutions.

But drilling and practice are two different things.

Drilling is when one repeats a movement or technique, long after they are competent in the application of the technique. This creates muscle memory in the body (the ability to perform a movement on a sub-conscious level).

Practice is when you obtain not only the ability to perform the technique, but more importantly the understanding of the technique. Not just how the technique works but why, when and what to be careful of when applying the technique.

As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring and not just continued drilling.

The live situational sparring is by far the most important element to learning a technique as it forces people to apply it in real time against an unwilling opponent, rather than a compliant one. This helps the student develop the timing for the technique (which is much more important than the application). The timing is one of the most over looked element in jiu jitsu...."

I'm still not sure how he teaches the progression from practicing a technique to live sparring. I presume there's some level of (what I would consider) drilling. It sounds like his point is that too much time is spent on drilling a single technique (which I can agree with), and that time is better spent on live sparring and situational drills.

 

[JR 137]

Per Kit Dale:
“I feel that a lot of people have misunderstood a lot of what I have said in the past. I teach seminars now all over the world and a lot of my common feedback come from people who now realise what I meant, when I say “I don’t think people should drill”. Many people misunderstand me for saying “you can’t practice a technique”.

This is not correct. I say you shouldn’t drill techniques, but you can practice them. I encourage the practice of techniques, especially at the start as it’s a good way of opening someone’s minds to the possibility of solutions.

But drilling and practice are two different things.

Drilling is when one repeats a movement or technique, long after they are competent in the application of the technique. This creates muscle memory in the body (the ability to perform a movement on a sub-conscious level).

Practice is when you obtain not only the ability to perform the technique, but more importantly the understanding of the technique. Not just how the technique works but why, when and what to be careful of when applying the technique.

As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring and not just continued drilling.

The live situational sparring is by far the most important element to learning a technique as it forces people to apply it in real time against an unwilling opponent, rather than a compliant one. This helps the student develop the timing for the technique (which is much more important than the application). The timing is one of the most over looked element in jiu jitsu...."

Just some good old common sense there.

As far as the last line, timing is just about everything. The right technique applied the right way is worthless if it’s not used at the right moment. Not just in grappling, but in striking too. Timed right, a right hook will KO an opponent. Too soon or too late, it just won’t work.

 

[Danny T]

I'm still not sure how he teaches the progression from practicing a technique to live sparring. I presume there's some level of (what I would consider) drilling. It sounds like his point is that too much time is spent on drilling a single technique (which I can agree with), and that time is better spent on live sparring and situational drills.

"As soon as the student is competent in showing an adequate ability to not only perform, but understand the movement, he or she should be forced to integrate it into live situational sparring and not just continued drilling."
From this is seems he's ok with drilling to the point of the person knowing the movement, understanding what is going on with the movement and being able to perform it to start sparring it vs continued drilling.

 

[drop bear]

Why would he want to stop being unconscious competent?

Mental elasticity.

Especially if you want to set traps for people moves ahead or problem solve on the fly.

 

[drop bear]

Just some good old common sense there.

As far as the last line, timing is just about everything. The right technique applied the right way is worthless if it’s not used at the right moment. Not just in grappling, but in striking too. Timed right, a right hook will KO an opponent. Too soon or too late, it just won’t work.

The question of timing also goes back to that baz rutten discussion regarding his striking which he does "wrong". Even though he knocks elite fighters out with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mental elasticity.

Especially if you want to set traps for people moves ahead or problem solve on the fly.

I don't see unconscious competence (the ability to do a thing without having to think) as opposed to elasticity. I am unconscious competent on several techniques that overlap. If you're not at that stage, you literally have to think about what you're doing (make a conscious choice or series of choices) as you do it.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see unconscious competence (the ability to do a thing without having to think) as opposed to elasticity. I am unconscious competent on several techniques that overlap. If you're not at that stage, you literally have to think about what you're doing (make a conscious choice or series of choices) as you do it.

Which makes you predicable. Where as you talk to a top level competitor. He is exactly thinking about what he is doing when he does it. That is how you are three moves ahead of the other guy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't see unconscious competence (the ability to do a thing without having to think) as opposed to elasticity. I am unconscious competent on several techniques that overlap. If you're not at that stage, you literally have to think about what you're doing (make a conscious choice or series of choices) as you do it.

The issue I think is when you are unconscious competent in a specific way. So I'm used to drilling against a right hook with a block then osotogari. When someone throws a right hook, they'll know I'm about to block and go into osoto gari, and can intercept at any point in that combo. If I'm used to, when I get 'nervous' from a certain position, throwing low hook, high hook, clinch, someone who has seen me fight will know what way to move to make me 'nervous' and trigger that combination.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which makes you predicable. Where as you talk to a top level competitor. He is exactly thinking about what he is doing when he does it. That is how you are three moves ahead of the other guy.

If I have a slate of techniques to work from, it doesn't make me more predictable if they are unconscious than if they are conscious. The difference between conscious-competent and unconscious-competent isn't the ability to select, it's the ability to do without having to think through the steps. If you stop yourself shy of U-C, you never get to the point where you're able to execute in real time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue I think is when you are unconscious competent in a specific way. So I'm used to drilling against a right hook with a block then osotogari. When someone throws a right hook, they'll know I'm about to block and go into osoto gari, and can intercept at any point in that combo. If I'm used to, when I get 'nervous' from a certain position, throwing low hook, high hook, clinch, someone who has seen me fight will know what way to move to make me 'nervous' and trigger that combination.

Agreed. And I think this is where Dale is heading. He's not trying to avoid reaching unconscious-competent. He's trying to avoid automatically going to the same answer every time, which requires bringing several techniques to U-C for the same situation. That's the point of the situational drills he talks about.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@drop bear , @gpseymour I think I figured out what the disconnect is here: the difference between unconscious competence, and unconscious action (reflex). I'm not a scientist, or a muscle memory expert by any means, but this is how I understand it.

If I were to take a roundhouse kick:

Unconscious competence, from what I understand, would be not having to think about the kick. Not having to think about pivoting my foot, raising my leg to a 45* angle, and keeping my guard at. I think "I want to throw a roundhouse kick" and I do it. So I can have unconscious competence, but still only use it when the timing is right, and I have it set up, or it's setting something else up. This, IMO, sounds good, since you can still do the thinking and planning DB is talking about. It does have one issue I can think of though, which is any bad habits or tells can still be there. So if I always raise my guard before throwing the kick, someone may now I'm about to. IMO drilling can help here, if you're drilling to get rid of a specific habit/tell, but you want to make sure you're not bringing yourself to unconscious action.

Unconscious actions, from what I understand is more of a reflex. So you have all the things of UC, but now in addition, you don't think "I want to throw a roundhouse kick" you just do it. This could be nice since it's quicker, but it also prevents you from setting anything up or deciding what you want to do, since you just automatically threw a roundhouse before you get to it. So if you get into a higher-level fight, or any fight where the person reads you, this can cause you trouble.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@drop bear , @gpseymour I think I figured out what the disconnect is here: the difference between unconscious competence, and unconscious action (reflex). I'm not a scientist, or a muscle memory expert by any means, but this is how I understand it.

If I were to take a roundhouse kick:

Unconscious competence, from what I understand, would be not having to think about the kick. Not having to think about pivoting my foot, raising my leg to a 45* angle, and keeping my guard at. I think "I want to throw a roundhouse kick" and I do it. So I can have unconscious competence, but still only use it when the timing is right, and I have it set up, or it's setting something else up. This, IMO, sounds good, since you can still do the thinking and planning DB is talking about. It does have one issue I can think of though, which is any bad habits or tells can still be there. So if I always raise my guard before throwing the kick, someone may now I'm about to. IMO drilling can help here, if you're drilling to get rid of a specific habit/tell, but you want to make sure you're not bringing yourself to unconscious action.

Unconscious actions, from what I understand is more of a reflex. So you have all the things of UC, but now in addition, you don't think "I want to throw a roundhouse kick" you just do it. This could be nice since it's quicker, but it also prevents you from setting anything up or deciding what you want to do, since you just automatically threw a roundhouse before you get to it. So if you get into a higher-level fight, or any fight where the person reads you, this can cause you trouble.

Agreed. UC makes it possible for a sequence (including any bad habits you've engrained with it) to be produced without thought during the process. It also makes it possible (but not obligatory) to perform it without having to select it. That second is as important for usabiliy as the first, but has to be tempered by having the ability to NOT do it (or vary the way of doing it). That's why Dale uses those situational drills - it gives him more UC actions he can select from in a given situation. He probably has one or two of those (what my instructor refers to as "pocket techniques") that are his most common selections, and the ones he will be most likely to perform if he allows unconscious selection (most useful when the opponent doesn't know what they are).

 

[JR 137]

The issue I think is when you are unconscious competent in a specific way. So I'm used to drilling against a right hook with a block then osotogari. When someone throws a right hook, they'll know I'm about to block and go into osoto gari, and can intercept at any point in that combo. If I'm used to, when I get 'nervous' from a certain position, throwing low hook, high hook, clinch, someone who has seen me fight will know what way to move to make me 'nervous' and trigger that combination.

What you’re saying is the people you regularly spar with pretty much know how you’re going to respond to that “attack” every time, correct? Do you think someone random who knows nothing about you and has never seen you spar would know that’s your response?

For the people arguing predictably...

If we’re talking a street encounter against unknown assailants, how predictable would you/we really be? Case in point: I regularly throw a jab-cross-right roundhouse-left back kick. I just naturally and comfortably throw that combo, as I feel momentum carries me through it smoothly and powerfully. The people I regularly spar with see it coming, and I rarely connect with the back kick. They see my follow-through on the roundhouse, and step way back out of range and don’t have to block it. Here’s the key though - they’re used to seeing me do it. My first few weeks there, I caught everyone with it. After the overly followed-through roundhouse, they’d close distance, and end up running into my back kick, multiplying the force if I didn’t pull it after contact.

I became predictable because they know me and have been hit with it more than enough times to keep making the same mistake. They’re expecting it. If this is someone who’s never seen me fight, how predictable am I? I’ve connected with that back kick on just about everyone I’ve ever sparred with’s stomach the first time or two. During my initial stint in karate way back in the day, I took class one day at another dojo in our organization. I threw it as my opening combo against my first two partners and it fight them both. So I decided to do it against everyone. Every single one of them walked into that back kick as I went down the line, about 8 of them. All of them were at least 3rd dan, none of them ever sparred with me before.

Predictable? Absolutely. If you’ve sparred with me before. If not, I don’t remember it ever not connecting after I felt good at it.

Predictably is something to seriously avoid if you’re a competitor. If it’s someone who doesn’t know you, there’s really no predictability. Perfect a tried and true combo so you can use it when it matters most. So what if everyone in the dojo knows it’s coming? I don’t plan on getting into a fight with any of them. And their counters help me improve it even more. Have a couple 3-4 of these combos that just flat out work every time against an unknowing person, and you’re pretty much good to go, so long as you’re not fighting people you’re training with.

Maybe I’m wrong. So what if everyone in kempodisciple’s dojo knows he’s going to use that response whenever they throw a hook. So what if they bait him by throwing it? If he’s good enough with his response, it’ll catch everyone who doesn’t know him. It’s not like someone off the street has video of him doing it beforehand. It’s not like someone who’s going to attack me was able to study my tendencies and prepare.

“Predictably” is good, so long as your opponent doesn’t know what you’re going to throw and you don’t do it 10 times during your encounter with him. Going by what I’ve seen and been in in an actual fight, fights don’t last long enough to become predictable. Competition, sure; but not an actual fight.