keep in mind that if your opponent is hard to stop, so are you.

[sgtmac_46]

The very best advice I ever heard about handguns in self defense is:

Not really.....one thing that a handgun DOES do at close range very well....CONTACT WOUNDS create much larger wound channels than the bullets do at range....ESPECIALLY when the barrel is pressed in the center of the FACE! I'll still take a handgun to a knife, deadly underrated as the knife is.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The irony is that those who don't begin the gunfight when they should always seem to be the ones who have the most trouble.....

It has become a truism that in a 'real' gunfight we never shoot like we do at the range, and that may generally be true for a great many reasons, most of which are psychological.....but it isn't ALWAYS true.....a trooper I know had to use his pistol in a shooting incident involving an armed gunman....and when the gunman moved to bring his rifle toward the trooper...he fired three rounds at five feet, all three of which hit EXACTLY center-mass, all three penetrated the heart, and the entire grouping could have been covered by a silver dollar! It can be done under combat conditions......what separates him from you or me?

I believe the main thing, other than his skill and training at arms, is that he has the type of personality that if he believes he's right, there's no room for questioning, he moves on confident that he's right......and that leaves no room for hesitation or psychological distraction......then it's just a simple matter of front sight, PRESS!


We can see the same effect in combat....most men see combat as a life or death struggle of great weight.....there are those, however, who really don't experience that over-whelming feeling.....who are able to view the enemy as prey, little more than shooting ducks!

A good example of this mindset is provided by Chuck Mawhinney who had the highest confirmed kills of any Marine Sniper in Vietnam, even more than the legendary Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock.

"Once I had a Charlie [slang for Viet Cong] in my scope, it was my job to kill him before he killed me," said Mawhinney, now 51 and retired from a desk job with the U.S. Forest Service. "I never looked in their eyes, I never stopped to think about whether the guy had a wife or kids."

"It was the ultimate hunting trip: a man hunting another man who was hunting me," he said. "Don't talk to me about hunting lions or elephants; they don't fight back with rifles and scopes. I just loved it. I ate it up." http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/chuck_mawhinney.htm

He once caught a platoon of 16 NVA crossing a river on foot.....he took all 16 with head shots, one after another, front to back so that they wouldn't appreciate how accurate his fire was......in a manner very similar to Alvin York.....taking them back to front shows a lethalness of thought and intent beyond what most people would be thinking. That goes to show if mere 'survival' is your goal, you're behind the power curve.


One might point out that the Mawhinney example is a man with a rifle, from concealment......well, then consider the example of Wild Bill Hickok.....one may say that some of his legend is apocryphal, but enough of it is validated to support the notion of Hickok as a cool and deadly opponent......no better example than the Hickok/Tutt duel in Springfield, Mo......in one of the only real examples of the stereotypical movie high noon gunfights, Hickok and Tutt drew down on each other on the street......both firing simultaneously, at a distance considered by most historians to be about 75 yards, Tutt missing entirely......and Hickok's .36 bullet drilling right through Tutt's heart, killing him where he fell! A single shot fired at 75 yards striking his opponent in the heart, while Hickok was being fired upon himself! Even if the 75 yards range was exaggerated, even if it were 50 yards or 25 yards......it still demonstrates a cool deliberation under fire, and how that ability translates in to being able to place a lethal bullet shot!


Cool deliberation is a constant trait we see in the history of men who are deadly at arms.....is a train we're born with, or a trait we can be taught?

 

[Cruentus]

Cool deliberation is a constant trait we see in the history of men who are deadly at arms.....is a train we're born with, or a trait we can be taught?

I'd like to say taught, but maybe it is a little of both.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Wel it's like Wyatt Earp used to say regarding gunfights:

"Take your time, in a hurry".

 

[Guardian]

The bottom line is that the police officer was able to go home (well after the hospital stay for a few probably), but he was alive due to his instincts, training, experiences and the bad guy lay dead. How many rounds, as freakin many as it takes in my view.

 

[arnisador]

Wel it's like Wyatt Earp used to say regarding gunfights:

"Take your time, in a hurry".

Yes, well-explained in Unforgiven.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'd like to say taught, but maybe it is a little of both.

I suspect you're right......some men are born with that kind of cool.....and we know them when we meet them.

But fortunately we can train it to a great degree as well....the modern military is proof positive of that!

 

[tellner]

Nope sgtmac, you're really missing the point here. His advice was to assume that the handgun would not stop the fight and to be ready for the worst. If you get a better result, good. But that's all you can rely on it for.

 

[searcher]

Here is one for Tex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoW8nHIVuRk&feature=related

 

[KenpoTex]

Here is one for Tex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoW8nHIVuRk&feature=related

okay, okay...y'all win

 

[Deaf Smith]

Unfortunately, this is not unusual. Police are taught to fire center mass. Under those circumstances I would have used the "failure drill," and began firing at his melon. Destroy the computer, and the keyboard ceases to function.

It's called the Mozambique drill. It's for when your 'doing doesn't do it'.

There's always the old gunfighter's technique. Aim for the belt buckle and move up from there.

That's called the 'zipper' technique. You let the recoil of the weapon bring the sight up a bit for the next shot.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome and well, to keep shooting center mass after the first two or three shots, with still no real change in the attacker attitude, indicates you need to shift fire to either the head or pelvis region. And that is where the Mozambique drill comes in handy. The zipper is for very close range firing.

Deaf

 

[thardey]

The bottom line is that the police officer was able to go home (well after the hospital stay for a few probably), but he was alive due to his instincts, training, experiences and the bad guy lay dead. How many rounds, as freakin many as it takes in my view.

And his bullet-proof vest. Remeber he was shot center mass first.
Not sure if that helps the rest of us who only wear a t-shirt under our coats.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Nope sgtmac, you're really missing the point here. His advice was to assume that the handgun would not stop the fight and to be ready for the worst. If you get a better result, good. But that's all you can rely on it for.

If you say so......but what's your back up plan if you fail with your handgun? Save the last bullet for yourself?

Perhaps better training and shot placement are in order.....FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!

I don't think in terms of 'It's not gonna work, it's not gonna work, it's not gonna work'.....it's GONNA work if I have to stick up his *** and pull the trigger! You may be saying the same thing in a different way, if so then I agree!

Any SOB tries to kill me is going to die.....and if I die instead, you can write my epithet.

I'm of the opinion that too much negative analysis is paralysis......

And in keeping with theme of the 'Unforgiven'....

Little Bill: 'A man who will keep his head an' not get rattled under fire...he will kill you like as not.'

W.W. Beauchamp: 'But if the other fellow is quicker and fires first...'

Little Bill: 'He will be hurryin' and he will miss. That there is as fast as I can pull an' aim an' hit anythin'more'n ten feet away... unlessit's a barn.'

W.W. Beauchamp: 'But... if he doesn't miss?'

Little Bill: 'Then he will kill you. That is why there are so few dangerous men like old Bob there... an' like me. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow... an' if the sonofabitch is shootin' back at you... well, it'll unnerve most fellas.'

 

[sgtmac_46]

And his bullet-proof vest. Remeber he was shot center mass first.
Not sure if that helps the rest of us who only wear a t-shirt under our coats.

In that case I wouldn't wait quite as long as he did to start shooting.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's called the Mozambique drill. It's for when your 'doing doesn't do it'.



That's called the 'zipper' technique. You let the recoil of the weapon bring the sight up a bit for the next shot.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome and well, to keep shooting center mass after the first two or three shots, with still no real change in the attacker attitude, indicates you need to shift fire to either the head or pelvis region. And that is where the Mozambique drill comes in handy. The zipper is for very close range firing.

Deaf

All good advice......the Mozambique drill is one I practice fairly often......and the pelvic triangle hit is one we've kicked around for a while.....and I think you're right, it's a good hit for extreme close range.....hit the pelvic triangle and walk up.


I think it's good to point out that the pistol round is an anemic manstopper......but I think it's also possible to make too much of it. It is anemic, but many men have been successfully neutralized by it in skilled hands. Perhaps we need to make more of good shot placement as you say......certainly the pistol is no more anemic for humans as a .275 Rigby is for elephants, but Karamojo Bell certainly took scores of elephants with his .275 due to extremely well placed shooting.....and while aspiring to his level of proficiency is aiming a little high, it shouldn't be too much to expect being able to drill an opponent in the apricot at conversational ranges with a handgun.


I bring up Bell for one very good reason.....Bell was a student of his prey and it's anatomy.....he knew PRECISELY where the vital organs rested in the elephants body, and how best to strike them from different angles. Perhaps that is the key here.....

 

[Andy Moynihan]

All good advice......the Mozambique drill is one I practice fairly often......and the pelvic triangle hit is one we've kicked around for a while.....and I think you're right, it's a good hit for extreme close range.....hit the pelvic triangle and walk up.


I think it's good to point out that the pistol round is an anemic manstopper......but I think it's also possible to make too much of it. It is anemic, but many men have been successfully neutralized by it in skilled hands. Perhaps we need to make more of good shot placement as you say......certainly the pistol is no more anemic for humans as a .275 Rigby is for elephants, but Karamojo Bell certainly took scores of elephants with his .275 due to extremely well placed shooting.....and while aspiring to his level of proficiency is aiming a little high, it shouldn't be too much to expect being able to drill an opponent in the apricot at conversational ranges with a handgun.


I bring up Bell for one very good reason.....Bell was a student of his prey and it's anatomy.....he knew PRECISELY where the vital organs rested in the elephants body, and how best to strike them from different angles. Perhaps that is the key here.....

Speed is fine, Power is fine, but ACCURACY is FINAL.

 

[LawDog]

Hind sight is great but when something like this comes down you have to take the situation that you are in and,
*cover / concealment,
*protect yourself while being careful of bystanders,
*do not use a rapid suppression fire, conserve your ammo, most PO's only carry 2 - 3 mags,
*if possible radio for backup.
Everyone absorbs impacting trama differently, alcohol and drugs do play a part in the way a person feels / responds to this trama. In some cases it is the suspects sheer will power that keeps him / her going. In Nam I actually saw Charlie take a full mag. of 5.56 Nato and he still kept on coming. All of the impacted rounds were center of mass and that was the problem.
Today both the bad guys and good guys are taught to double and triple tap when shooting. The original reason being the possibility of someone wearing a vest. If a round hit the vest the suspect or PO he will feel the heavy trama of the impact through his vest and this will put him off balance. A second center of mass round will usually put him / her down because of the extreme pain from the trama. In some cases the second round would be a head shot or below the vest line into the groin area.
If you see a person continue to charge after a few center of mass hits then you should,
*take head shots,
*groin shots,
*leg shots.
Remember, duing a shoot out things happen way to fast and you have but split seconds to react and set up a loose game plan that fits your own situation and not the classic "text book" response.
:rules:

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Listen to LawDog. His are the words of wisdom.

If after 2 center-mass hits the customer is still not interested in going down, additional center-mass hits are unlikely to change his mind. Move to the CNS( "Aim for the "T") or the movement structure( pelvic girdle/belt buckle)

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you see a person continue to charge after a few center of mass hits then you should,
*take head shots,
*groin shots,
*leg shots.

And this should be drilled in, just like malfunction drills (after all, it IS a malfuction!) Like tap-rack-bang, fire a few COM and if no go, shift fire.

Deaf

 

[chinto]

Boys and girls there is a reason why the special forces and other people who do a lot of close quarters gunfights carry a .45 acp weapon for that kind of work. the .40 does not have the same wound characteristics that that old .45 does. I would suggest that when its NOT about bringing them back alive, ( ya i do expect cops to bring them in alive for trial, and die in the attempt perhaps some times...but that is the job of a peace officer! If don't like it, find a different job. ) that the military chooses when allowed to at the sharp end the old dependable .45 acp for the job.