Kata a Penetrating Look and Insight

[hungfistron]

The following quote is from my Instructor Sonny King...

Why does Kata exist?


It is my opinion the Kata, though used for combat, has in its curriculum the betterment of the human being, and the shaping of the human being through repetition of movement and the polishing of ones movement. Therefore, it is the repetition of Kata which removes unnecessary movement, produces good metabolic health, and keeps the body in optimum condition.


It is easier to understand Kata if you were to look at all of the Kata that are being performed in nature.

Article.

 

[exile]

I suppose you can think of it that way, if you like.

My own feeling is, kata are nothing more or less than convenient summaries of tactical response sets to different attack initiations—a grab, a shove, an out-of-the-blue haymaker that you have the awareness to see coming. There are four or five subsegments of each kata that are stand-alone technique guides. Each kata has several different relevant bunkai/applications, so the amount of information is quite large.

But unless you pressure test the techniques encoded in the kata with non-compliant training partners simulating street attacks in increasingly realistic ways, your knowledge of what to do will not translate into your ability to do it. It's the realistic-situation training which is what drives the responses into your muscle memory. Doing kata repeatedly, without a partner and without variations in the mode of attack trains you to use the kata knowledge for SD no better than kicking the air repeatedly trains you to use that kick in a life-or-death confrontation to take out an attacker. The kata contain the information—they're like the book on swimming technique. But if you don't actually get in the water and practice swimmming, you'll never be able to translate that knowledge into action.

If you want to make kata more than that, no harm done, I suppose...

 

[Tez3]

I have to say something here about the squirrels, sorry but I'm serious. The American squirrel and it's behaviour doesn't match the European squirrel at all. European squirrels are red and smaller, the American squirrels are grey and murderous little sods. They are wiping out the population of red squirrels here since they were introduced. They are actually on the list of the 100 worst invasive species.they are vermin and we are actually allowed to shoot them on sight.
http://conservation-issues.co.uk/Articles%20Pages/Grey_Squirrel_Article_07-07.htm

I prefer and share Exiles view of kata. If you wish to see only the airy fairy side and like the thing about the squirrels turn your eyes away from the truth I'm sure that fine for you.

 

[hungfistron]

My own feeling is, kata are nothing more or less than convenient summaries of tactical response sets to different attack initiations—a grab, a shove, an out-of-the-blue haymaker that you have the awareness to see coming. There are four or five subsegments of each kata that are stand-alone technique guides. Each kata has several different relevant bunkai/applications, so the amount of information is quite large.

It is my opinion the Kata, though used for combat, has in its curriculum the betterment of the human being, and the shaping of the human being through repetition of movement and the polishing of ones movement. Therefore, it is the repetition of Kata which removes unnecessary movement, produces good metabolic health, and keeps the body in optimum condition.

Thats the message my Instructor is trying to convey, kata is used primary for the polishing of the mind, body, and spirit. This is a positive result of years of practice whether with another person or without. This is its focus! Contrary to what many may believe, its application is for positive development of the practitioner, whether it can be used effectively in a combat situation is debatable.

It is actually used to develop the practitioner in the mindset of avoiding fighting.

 

[Tez3]

Thats the message my Instructor is trying to convey, kata is used primary for the polishing of the mind, body, and spirit. This is a positive result of years of practice whether with another person or without. This is its focus! Contrary to what many may believe, its application is for positive development of the practitioner, whether it can be used effectively in a combat situation is debatable.

It is actually used to develop the practitioner in the mindset of avoiding fighting.[/quote]

I'm sorry I don't think it is. It's an aide memoire for self defence, any other benefits are an added bonus.

On your quote by Funikoshi btw you should read up on Iain Abernethy's thoughts on what no first attack in karate means, he believes and it makes perfect sense that the karateka doesn't initiate fights but will strike first to finish one. It means not being the aggressor but pre emptive strikes are perfectly fine.

 

[hungfistron]

I prefer and share Exiles view of kata. If you wish to see only the airy fairy side and like the thing about the squirrels turn your eyes away from the truth I'm sure that fine for you.

Heh, I appreciate your candor about the squirrels... the differences were very interesting that you stated.

"Airy fairy side" that you refered to is very disrespectful to those that don't share in your opinion about this subject or about the "truth " as you put it. If I choose to look at something differently than you do, there is no need to label negatively my outlook. Lets just say that say that we have a difference in viewpoints and leave it at that.

Thanks for taking the time to post!

 

[exile]

It is actually used to develop the practitioner in the mindset of avoiding fighting.

Let me ask you something, h.

When the creator of modern linear Karate, Bushi Matsumura, was working in the service of the King of Okinawa as security director, chief of law enforcement and so on, he was sent to deal with a guy who was stealing food and other important items from people in one of the districts around Shuri. The perp turned out to be a shipwrecked Chinese sailor named Chinto, living 'rough', as the Brits say, in the area, who—astonishingly—fought Matsumura to a standstill. Matsumura was so impressed by Chinto's fighting abilities that he made a deal with him: teach me your combat system, all the good stuff, and I'll see that you get food and a lift home. He recorded the core of Chinto's techniques in the Chinto kata practiced by karateka to this day.

My question is, why do think Matsumura made up a whole kata recording the best of his formidable former antagonist's techniques? To give himself another way to avoid fighting???

 

[Tez3]

Your view of airy fairy must be different to mine. All it means is that you are taking the more ethereal view to kata than the rest of us. I said 'I think and I beliive' I didn't quote it as the truth so don't get a strop on with me.

 

[Steve]

The following quote is from my Instructor Sonny King...

It is easier to understand Kata if you were to look at all of the Kata that are being performed in nature.


The hawk which uses the Kata of gliding when flying, as opposed to the hummingbird which uses the rapid flapping of the wings to fly.


The frog which uses hopping as a Kata to travel over the terrain.


The centipede which uses Kata to control its leg movement, which if thought about on an independent
basis, he probably couldn't move.

With respect to your instructor, there is a concrete difference between fighting and kata, just as there is a very real difference between flapping my arms like a hummingbird and being able to fly. The metaphor doesn't work. Nature doesn't do kata. A frog doesn't practice the art of jumping; rather, it just jumps. A cheetah doesn't imagine fake prey to stalk. It simply stalks its prey.

All things in nature have this in common. Creating itself through repetitive movement. It is the movement which identifies each thing in nature.

Doing something over and over again can be valuable, but this argument lends itself better toward the repetition of the act, rather than the repitition of a derivative of that act. In other words, driving a manual transmission is the result of hours logged behind the wheel of the car. Over years, coordinating one's feet and hands to shift the car quickly and smoothly is as automatic as anything else. Pretending to drive can only take you so far.

The rest seems to be an argument in favor of natural selection.

Honestly, there is value in repetitive drills. There is value in solo drills, and there is value in compliant drills with a partner. The problem is when this is where the training stops. To try and use the analogy that your instructor uses, if the baby bird were to stay in the nest forever, flapping its wings, it would never fly. It would only be pretending.

 

[Steve]

I have to say something here about the squirrels, sorry but I'm serious. The American squirrel and it's behaviour doesn't match the European squirrel at all. European squirrels are red and smaller, the American squirrels are grey and murderous little sods. They are wiping out the population of red squirrels here since they were introduced. They are actually on the list of the 100 worst invasive species.they are vermin and we are actually allowed to shoot them on sight.
http://conservation-issues.co.uk/Articles Pages/Grey_Squirrel_Article_07-07.htm

I prefer and share Exiles view of kata. If you wish to see only the airy fairy side and like the thing about the squirrels turn your eyes away from the truth I'm sure that fine for you.

American squirrels ROCK! We're totally kicking your European squirrels' butts! And they're not just going after the little European squirrels... http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/01/23/nutkins-revenge-squirrel-attacks-on-the-rise/

 

[hungfistron]

Your view of airy fairy must be different to mine. All it means is that you are taking the more ethereal view to kata than the rest of us. I said 'I think and I beliive' I didn't quote it as the truth so don't get a strop on with me.

I would never get personal with anyone in these forums, if I offended you with my opinion, or the way that I took your words im very sorry. I look forward to more discussions with you, and I will always stay objective.

My question is, why do think Matsumura made up a whole kata recording the best of his formidable former antagonist's techniques? To give himself another way to avoid fighting???

Matsumura was a practitioner of Goju ryu, Karate and he was consumed with fighting his entire life. He was no doubt one of the best fighters in his time, but the fighting itself is what he lived and breathed. Some would say that is the reason that he grew upset when Funakoshi was chosen by the Japanese to represent Karate instead on himself. He thought that Funakoshi was a poor example of what a master of Karate, or a fighter should be, and he challenged him numerous times to fight. Funakoshi never accepted.

Of course Matsumura would say that kata would be used for fighting and fighting only. But this proves only what his view was of kata was, this view is not the only view of kata. My instructors view of kata is simply closer to what Funakoshi's (The Father of Modern day Karatedo) view of kata was.

For you to use him as an example proves only a another point of view, which is exactly what I was trying to convey with my instructors post.
Thank you for your opinion on the matter, and for your kind words.

Sorry if I didn't post quickly enough, im currently at work

 

[exile]

Matsumura was a practitioner of Goju ryu, Karate and he was consumed with fighting his entire life.

Say what??? As far as we know, there were no separate styles of karate back in the mid-19th century! But if any individual originated Goju Ryu, it would be Higashionna Kanryo, and it wasn't a Shuri development, but a Naha development. I have yet to see one Karate lineage that seriously proposes Matsumura as a transmission link in the propagation for Gojo Ryu, and no wonder: the guy was born at the end of the 18th century, and developed linear karate way before any fragmentation into separate styles.

He was no doubt one of the best fighters in his time, but the fighting itself is what he lived and breathed. Some would say that is the reason that he grew upset when Funakoshi was chosen by the Japanese to represent Karate instead on himself. He thought that Funakoshi was a poor example of what a master of Karate, or a fighter should be, and he challenged him numerous times to fight. Funakoshi never accepted.

Are you kidding me? What are you talking about?? Matsumura died in 1889/90, around thirty years before Funakoshi left for Japan!

Of course Matsumura would say that kata would be used for fighting and fighting only. But this proves only what his view was of kata was, this view is not the only view of kata. My instructors view of kata is simply closer to what Funakoshi's (The Father of Modern day Karatedo) view of kata was.

You mean the Funakoshi who said (in Tote Jutsu (Canada: Masters Publication, 1994), 291-307) that 'War is a method which God gave humans to organize the world.” (291) The peaceful Funakoshi who sold the Japanese military on the idea that Karate could build great esprit de corps amongst the young conscripts who were going to be cannon fodder in the coming war that he enthusiastically supported? That Funakoshi?

For you to use him as an example proves only a another point of view, which is exactly what I was trying to convey with my instructors post.

Chotoku Kyan, Choki Motobu and plenty of others of the great karate pioneers had exactly the same view of kata and combat. Funakoshi was primarily a teacher, not an originator; his gift was to make karate not a combat art but a martial calisthenics to serve the purpose of Japanese militarism, which was why he was supported by the Japanese Ministries of War and of Education. But I'm still reeling from your comment that Matsumura, dead a generation before anyone thought about teaching karate in Japan, was jealous of his student Itosu's student for being 'selected' to go to Japan...

...wait... this is an April Fools joke, right? Whew!.... well, you had me fooled there for a minute, that's for sure! :wink1:

 

[hungfistron]

Doing something over and over again can be valuable, but this argument lends itself better toward the repetition of the act, rather than the repitition of a derivative of that act. In other words, driving a manual transmission is the result of hours logged behind the wheel of the car. Over years, coordinating one's feet and hands to shift the car quickly and smoothly is as automatic as anything else. Pretending to drive can only take you so far.

Thats exactly his point. The goal is for your kata to become your nature, so that you never think your way through it. It is performed without thinking, without a 2nd thought. The animal moves instinctively, though kata a man over many years of practice can do the same. Far from pertending to be or do anything...

 

[elder999]

I have to say something here about the squirrels, sorry but I'm serious. The American squirrel and it's behaviour doesn't match the European squirrel at all. European squirrels are red and smaller, the American squirrels are grey and murderous little sods. They are wiping out the population of red squirrels here since they were introduced. They are actually on the list of the 100 worst invasive species.they are vermin and we are actually allowed to shoot them on sight.
http://conservation-issues.co.uk/Articles Pages/Grey_Squirrel_Article_07-07.htm
.

If you're shooting them,I have several really good recipes......

 

[dancingalone]

I may be a throwback, but I just plain don't understand the concept of linking self-betterment to one's martial arts. Surely there are better outlets than a fighting system meant to dealt out crippling, if not killing, blows to one's attackers? It's a popular idea I understand... When did Zen Buddhism creep its way in karate? Another 'recent' Japanese add-on?

 

[Steve]

Thats exactly his point. The goal is for your kata to become your nature, so that you never think your way through it. It is performed without thinking, without a 2nd thought. The animal moves instinctively, though kata a man over many years of practice can do the same. Far from pertending to be or do anything...

His point is backwards. Have you ever read any David Hume? Your instructor would love him.

Anyway, that aside, I think that your instructor has it a little backwards. It's more than just the action. It's the action in context. For example, walking is a specific motion. Walking in zero gravity could look exactly the same as walking on Earth. However, the motion of walking in zero gravity, whether done once or a million times, will in no way prepare a person to walk on the Earth. The motion is ingrained, but out of context, the lesson is incomplete.

It's interesting that you use the nature metaphor. I have a 7 month old daughter (my third) and I'm enjoying watching her develop. She's rolling over now, can sit up on her own and is very precocious. She doesn't learn anything in theory. Nothing is academic or learned in a vacuum. Every single thing she does is with specific intent. She learns to grasp by grasping... not practicing the motion of grasping, but actually by trying over and over again to control her arms and hands. Trial and error is how she is learning.

Or all of that said in a much simpler way, there is no better way to learn something than to actually do it. Everything else is supplementary. Now, it's very easy to justify "kata" by widening the definition to the point where any repitition of motion is included. I disagree with that. Kata is a simulation of action. Even within the Martial Arts model, there is Kata, there is Sparring and there is Fighting. The distinction is the degree of resistance. Kata is well defined and does not include active resistance.

 

[seasoned]

American squirrels ROCK! We're totally kicking your European squirrels' butts! And they're not just going after the little European squirrels... http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/01/23/nutkins-revenge-squirrel-attacks-on-the-rise/

That's what i'm talking about.

 

[Steve]

i may be a throwback, but i just plain don't understand the concept of linking self-betterment to one's martial arts. Surely there are better outlets than a fighting system meant to dealt out crippling, if not killing, blows to one's attackers? It's a popular idea i understand... When did zen buddhism creep its way in karate? Another 'recent' japanese add-on?

qft!

 

[Stac3y]

American squirrels ROCK! We're totally kicking your European squirrels' butts! And they're not just going after the little European squirrels... http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/01/23/nutkins-revenge-squirrel-attacks-on-the-rise/

:roflmao:

If this article were dated today, I'd think it was a great April Fool's joke.

 

[jim777]

I may be a throwback, but I just plain don't understand the concept of linking self-betterment to one's martial arts. Surely there are better outlets than a fighting system meant to dealt out crippling, if not killing, blows to one's attackers? It's a popular idea I understand... When did Zen Buddhism creep its way in karate? Another 'recent' Japanese add-on?

1976 That's when Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura started Seido Juku (afdter leaving Kyokushin), which indeed has Zen classes as part of the 4th kyu and above belt requirements.