Karl Rove - Valerie Plame - Joseph Wilson - Exposing a CIA covert operative

M

michaeledward

Grandmaster
I'm a bit surprised to see several commentators call for Karl Rove's dismissal after Newsweek confirmed that Time's emails named him as a source to Matt Cooper. While it was widely speculated that Mr. Rove was the source of information to Robert Novak, it had been denied by White House spokesperson Scott McClellan.

There is now no doubt that Mr. Rove indicated that Joseph Wilson's wife was a CIA agent involved in Mr. Wilson's trip to Niger. The emails to Mr. Cooper indicate this 3 days prior to Mr. Novak's original column.

From a Media that has supported the Presidents 'War on Terror', with little questioning, or analysis of consequence or cost, calling for Mr. Rove's dismissal or resignation seems a bold step.

What do you think?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8504290/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8525978/site/newsweek/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

http://www.slate.com/id/2122393/
 
Bush said that Rove is gone if it turns out that he broke the law. So far as the evidence that I have seen thus far goes, it doesn't appear that he did.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.


Honestly, the story seems pretty trivial at this point to be getting the attention that it is. Not to say that it is not newsworthy, but sheesh.

I suppose though, anything that makes republicans look bad is automatically front page stuff.
 
Since Republicans are the first to demonize the other side of the aisle as immoral and beneath contempt, it is refreshing that, from time to time, they are reminded that they are also fallable.

Although, since Rove is, IMHO, the Devil, I don't think that Bush will fire him since that would be a clear seperation of Church and State. And that is something that Republicans are not that good at.
 
ginshun said:
Honestly, the story seems pretty trivial at this point to be getting the attention that it is. Not to say that it is not newsworthy, but sheesh.

I suppose though, anything that makes republicans look bad is automatically front page stuff.
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Trivial? From the party of 'National Security', you think releasing the identity of a covert operative is Trivial?

How many hundreds of thousands of dollars does it cost to train and place a covert operative? How many other covert operative covers may have been exposed by exposing this operative? Ms. Wilson was said to be employed by a ficticious company located in the greater Boston area, were any other CIA operatives sharing that cover, that were in turn exposed? How many operations were conducted by the operative in the past, which puts how many lives at stake overseas?

President George W. Bush said:
There are too many leaks of classified information in Washington. If there's leaks out of my Administration, I want to know who it is, and if the person has violated the law, the person will be taken care of.
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Do you suppose the President knew that Mr. Rove had disclosed classified information to a reporter prior to promoting him in his second administration?

But, I suppose it's not a lie about ********.
 
I have no problem with him being booted if needs be.

However I do find it amusing how everyone is now so concerned with the safety of government agents. Guess you have to have the right head on the chopping block.
 
Tgace said:
I have no problem with him being booted if needs be.

However I do find it amusing how everyone is now so concerned with the safety of government agents. Guess you have to have the right head on the chopping block.
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Exactly.

Would there be the same media outrage at this situation if the person in question were a prominent democrat as opposed to Rove? Maybe, but I doubt it. I have a strong feeling that if that were the case the only place you would hear about it was on talk radio and maybe the back page of a newspaper or two.

Where was the outrage when it was found out that Sandy Berger was caught smuggling top secret documents out of the National Archives? That story was big time news for about a day before it was backpaged and only talked about by Rush, Hannity, Savage, ect.



I am not implying that there has been no wrongdoing here, but why does this story seem to be so much more newsworthy?



Do you suppose the President knew that Mr. Rove had disclosed classified information to a reporter prior to promoting him in his second administration?
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That sounds like an accusation to me. Proof?
 
Exposing an American undercover agent ISN'T a crime??? Valerie Plame's assignment involved intelligence on weapons of mass destruction, which was America's stated purpose in going to war in Iraq. Exposing her was an overt act of betrayal during a time of war. That is the definition of "treason" which is a high crime. It isn't trivial, and it isn't a Democratic, Republican, liberal or conservative issue. I don't see how any loyal American can justify or trivialize that act for any reason.
 
Tgace said:
I have no problem with him being booted if needs be.

However I do find it amusing how everyone is now so concerned with the safety of government agents. Guess you have to have the right head on the chopping block.
Click to expand...

When, was Who, not interested in the security of Government Covert Operatives?
 
ginshun said:
Exactly.
Would there be the same media outrage at this situation if the person in question were a prominent democrat as opposed to Rove? Maybe, but I doubt it. I have a strong feeling that if that were the case the only place you would hear about it was on talk radio and maybe the back page of a newspaper or two.
Where was the outrage when it was found out that Sandy Berger was caught smuggling top secret documents out of the National Archives? That story was big time news for about a day before it was backpaged and only talked about by Rush, Hannity, Savage, ect.
I am not implying that there has been no wrongdoing here, but why does this story seem to be so much more newsworthy?
That sounds like an accusation to me. Proof?
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In case you hadn't heard, Mr. Berger was convicted in the National Archives case.

Mr. Rove communicated to Mr. Cooper three days before Mr. Novak's column was published. In that communication Mr. Rove erroneously, by the way, identified Ambassador Wilson's Wife as the person at the CIA who authorized the ambassador's trip to Niger. This information is not an accusation, but proof reported by Newsweek Magazine. Wilson's Wife, in case you weren't aware, was a covert operative. Mr. Rove gave information related to her position to a reporter.

As to the crime aspect, you are correct, that Mr. Rove needed to know that Plame was covert, and needed to intend to disclose that covertness for it to be a crime. While it is 'criminal', it remains to be seen if it reaches the point of indictment. However, either the President is a man of resolve, who stands by his word, or he is not. The President stated he would fire anyone involved in the leak. It is clear that Rove was invovled in the leak. The issue, at this time and from me, is not whether it was a crime or not. Although, that is not far away.

Further, Mr. Rove was very prominantly given a promotion by the President early in his second administration. (Which for those with a calendar, is after Mr. Novak's column).

Here's the sequence:
A - Rove told Cooper about a Wilson's Wife.
B - The President said he would fire anyone involved in the leak of a CIA operative's cover.
C - The President promoted Rove.

The question -- not an accusation -- is, was the President aware of 'A' at the time of 'C'.
 
The amount of press and attention is not just due to the apparent felony committed, but due to the fact that this appeared to be an act of political corruption and abuse of power/knowledge.

It is not at all difficult to see why folks are so interested in this, unless you happen to think that this administration does no wrong.

Not that you are one of those people.
 
As to the "law breaking" issue...

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/m-n/mariani/2005/mariani071305.htm
Knowingly revealing the identity of a covert agent is illegal under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act. If that's what Rove or anyone else did, he ought to be hung out for the crows. (I wonder whether Liberals will wail about such a violation of the Geneva Conventions, as they do when terrorists get too much or too little air conditioning?) In order for Rove (or whoever the source was) to have broken the law, he would have to know and reveal that Plame was a covert operative for the CIA. The problem is... she wasn't one anymore.

Apparently, Valerie Plame ceased to be a covert agent when her cover was blown years earlier. The CIA believed that Aldrich Ames (CIA agent/KGB spy/traitor) revealed her role, along with many other operatives, to the KGB before his arrest in 1994. Plame's former existence as a secret agent became little more than cocktail party chatter with which to thrill the uninitiated. Since her identity was not classified, not secret, and she had not been assigned to duty outside the US in the last five years, revealing her mundane desk job with the CIA was simply not a crime. Lots of people work for the CIA, after all.
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As I understand it, this issue isnt all black/white. This seems to be far more political than it is "security minded". Theres probably a lot of people from both sides of the aisle that should be shown the door for political games like these.

Now if Rove was shown to have lied in Grand Jury testimony, or in tesitmony to the FBI, that is a crime and he should face justice for that.
 
If it turns out she was a "covert agent" and Rove intentionally burned her. Throw him to the dogs. Would an American reporter who intentionally "burns" an operative be subject to the same law?
 
Tgace -

Are you saying that the criminal investigation is political, or that the public's response is political? Or something else? I'm confused.
 
The hype...from the political parties more than anywhere else.From the Dem lynch mob to the Rep "stonewall"
 
Oh, right. I agree. It reminds me of Clinton's impeachment in that sense.

Tgace said:
The hype...from the political parties more than anywhere else.From the Dem lynch mob to the Rep "stonewall"
Click to expand...
 
At this point, I will even conceed that Mr. Rove did not break any laws. He might very well been unaware of Ms. Plame's 'covert' status, which means he would not have broken the law.

The issue is, will the White House do what it said it would do?

The President said he would fire anyone involved in the leak. It is apparent that Mr. Rove was invovled in the leak. Seems like 'Firin' time' to me.

Add to that Mr. McClellan's comments of September '03 and the President's comments of June '04 and compare them to what has been said over the past three days.

So much for Mr. Bush bringing dignity back to the White House.

P.S. ... and if it is shown that Mr. Rove broke the law, which only time will tell, then throw the latest Harry Potter book at him.

P.P.S. ... and it isn't often that we can be privy to these things, but, the current Republican Party talking points memo is available under this link .... http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Exclusive_GOP_talking_points_on_Rove_seek_to_discre_0712.html .... so, if you to know about what 'spin' you'll be hearing from the loyalists this week .... you can be prepared.

P.P.P.S. ... oh, yeah, and some of the talking points are out right 'fabrications'. For instance, Ambassador Wilson did not state or claim that Vice President Cheney selected him to go to Niger. So, watch carefully these statements, when you hear them parrotted.
 
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