Karate Bunkai Application Methodology

[Kong Soo Do]

For the sake of simplicity, I break kata application into two different schools of thought: The first school of thought could be termed a literal application interpretation or block/punch/kick applications. In otherwords, a high block is a high block, a punch is a punch and so forth. The second can have different labels such as reversed engineered applications or hidden application or deeper meaning applications and so forth. In otherwords, you look at a high block and see a forearm strike or a shoulder lock. You look at a down block and see a hammer fist to the groin etc.

Now, I'd like to state that there is nothing wrong with either view and the purpose of the thread is not to stir the pot of controversy. I'd like to see who trains in what manner, and why. No wrong answers. Just want to see how different folks, perhaps in different arts were taught and perhaps during different eras.

Thank you in advance.

 

[seasoned]

IMO and my sensei, while I came up through the ranks, was to learn in the manor of "what you see is what you get". In doing it this way, whether it was a block or a certain stance, was to concentrate on body structure, good form, and proper body shifting.
Up to shodan the kata were basically "block punch kick".
Once we made Black Belt we learned 2 person drills for the kata that opened up a whole new world of thought.
We need to keep in mind that this was the 60s where time meant nothing. No time in grade, you were promoted when Sensei said you would be.

This thinking would not fly now, because everyone is in a big hurry, and lessons cost to much to spend to much time in one belt color.

The end result in the slow method was a strong base of body mechanics to work with.

 

[kitkatninja]

In the shotokan karate association that I studied with, the way our sensei taught us was (pre black belt) what you see is what get. However once you get to black belt, then you got the additional/hidden application/deeper meaning applications and so forth... The teaching and training was the traditional the 3 K's (kata, kihon and kumite).

In the TSD association, that I now study with (at least so far), the lines are more "blurred" between the 3 K's (the korean version of it anyway). So we learn the additional/hidden application/deeper meaning applications, etc as that would form part of the kumite.

Not sure if I'm explaining it correctly...

 

[dancingalone]

Goju-ryu karate has both. There are bunkai kumite sets practiced with partners (really two man kata) that explain the surface level applications of the form which is entirely challenging in of itself to learn and perform correctly. Many sensei also teach other more advanced explanations to the movements which some might considered 'hidden'.

Just read seasoned's post, and it seems my post is a terser repeat of his. Domo arigato, sir.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We do both in our dojo.

One of the first-generation students of the Soke of our system (Isshin-Ryu) was very much a bunkai man, and he had so many applications for every single move in every single kata that it beggars the imagination; and they work, too! We are fortunate to have gifted instructors who are deeply into the mechanics of the bunkai and can explain it, demonstrate it, and teach it. There is absolutely no doubt that it works; I've never seen one of the applications fail to clearly and definitely succeed.

Another of the first-generation students of our Soke is, as I have been told, a 'punch kick block' man. He does the system as it was shown, and because his body mechanics are so right, when he blocks you cry, when he punches you die, when he kicks, you lie - on the floor whimpering.

I am certain that no matter how long I live and train, I will never master a fraction of the bunkai inside our system, but it's there, it works, and it's amazing. If I can manage to pick up the parts that I can master and learn to do them well, I'll feel I have accomplished something. But if I can only learn to do the basic techniques well, with good body mechanics and power, that will have to do, and I'll be happy with it.

I do not make comparisons between the two ways of looking at our system. It's all Isshin-Ryu. It's all in there. But we are just fortunate to have instructors that can make it come to life and prove that it works as described. I feel blessed to have found the dojo where I train.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

IMO and my sensei, while I came up through the ranks, was to learn in the manor of "what you see is what you get". In doing it this way, whether it was a block or a certain stance, was to concentrate on body structure, good form, and proper body shifting.
Up to shodan the kata were basically "block punch kick".
Once we made Black Belt we learned 2 person drills for the kata that opened up a whole new world of thought.
We need to keep in mind that this was the 60s where time meant nothing. No time in grade, you were promoted when Sensei said you would be.

This thinking would not fly now, because everyone is in a big hurry, and lessons cost to much to spend to much time in one belt color.

The end result in the slow method was a strong base of body mechanics to work with.

We still do it the way you describe. However, we do teach both the basic and the advanced to all students, all belts, at one time. Those who can pick up the more subtle bunkai and apply it do so. Those who can't just do what they can, and hopefully they will pick it up at some point (I am one of the latter most of the time, I struggle with basics, but I appreciate the finer points even when I can't quite reproduce them). No one is in a rush for belts at my dojo. They'd be wasting their time if they were hoping for fast promotions. I'm looking at maybe 5 1/2 to 6 years for me from white belt to shodan. Some earn theirs faster, but not many, and some take longer. And shodan is just the beginning in my dojo. I doubt I'll live long enough to earn my sandan, even if I train the rest of my life. That's just the way it goes.

 

[Koryuhoka]

For the sake of simplicity, I break kata application into two different schools of thought: The first school of thought could be termed a literal application interpretation or block/punch/kick applications. In otherwords, a high block is a high block, a punch is a punch and so forth. The second can have different labels such as reversed engineered applications or hidden application or deeper meaning applications and so forth. In otherwords, you look at a high block and see a forearm strike or a shoulder lock. You look at a down block and see a hammer fist to the groin etc.

Now, I'd like to state that there is nothing wrong with either view and the purpose of the thread is not to stir the pot of controversy. I'd like to see who trains in what manner, and why. No wrong answers. Just want to see how different folks, perhaps in different arts were taught and perhaps during different eras.

Thank you in advance.

Good thread. My background in Okinawan karate is Goju Ryu, and I also incorporate Shorin kata as I feel they are two sides of one coin. The word Bunkai means to dismantle - take apart, to analyze. A word that goes with bunkai is OYO - to apply. The punch is a punch method is based on outward appearance, as you eluded to. This is what you demonstrate when you have visitors and do demonstrations for the public.
On the deeper end, the breakdown, analyze and apply aspect is what you teach your students. So I would say they are both viable and have definitive purpose.

 

[wab25]

Its interesting to note that the "literal" interpretation or "what you see is what you" depends greatly on who and when you saw it.

Lets say you looked at gedan-barai from Shotokan Karate, and show it as a throw or takedown. Is that a "literal" interpretation or a "hidden" interpretation. Most Shotokan schools these days would definitely call that "hidden" and many will even classify it as "non-sense." However, if you would have gone to Funakoshi's school, that would have been the "literal" interpretation of the move.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

Its interesting that when Funakoshi talks about "uke-te" he does not use the definition of "block." He uses the term "receive" as in "receiving hand" not "blocking hand." His definitions for uke-te are blending, pushing, pulling, parrying, trapping and striking. Note that striking is the last definition he lists... and as an alternate to the last definition, he mentions you could use that move to also knock away an attacking strike.

Those "hidden" shoulder locks, take downs and throws... were the "literal" interpretations, to the founder of the art and to his students. We have now come to a place where the "literal" has become "hidden" and in many places "no longer accepted."