Jun Fan Gung Fu

eyebeams

Purple Belt
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
381
Reaction score
15
Let me start by saying I have no interest in the Concepts/Original debate.

My question is: Is Jun Fan Gung Fu, the base of many JKD methods and the modified martial art formulated by Lee, any good? What are its distinguishing features? Benefits? Drawbacks. General insights? Is it complete?

I know some folks in the "Originals" crowd simply define Jun Fan *as* JKD, so I supppose this applies to them, too. Again, that split doesn't interest me. The base art of Jun Fan does.
 

makoto-dojo

Orange Belt
Joined
Apr 28, 2005
Messages
81
Reaction score
1
eyebeams said:
Let me start by saying I have no interest in the Concepts/Original debate.

My question is: Is Jun Fan Gung Fu, the base of many JKD methods and the modified martial art formulated by Lee, any good? What are its distinguishing features? Benefits? Drawbacks. General insights? Is it complete?

I know some folks in the "Originals" crowd simply define Jun Fan *as* JKD, so I supppose this applies to them, too. Again, that split doesn't interest me. The base art of Jun Fan does.
Hi,

Jun Fan Gung Fu as left to us by Bruce Lee, was not "completed" but is an art that covers many many bases. The weakest aspect is the grappling when compared to something like BJJ or Shooto etc. Bruce Lee was not finished with it.

Jun Fan has great hands and kicking, great infighting in terms of trapping, sectoring etc. Good entries, a good functional bridge to grappling, strategy, great training methods etc. Jun Fan Gung Fu I feel is a very good system, especially if you learn from an Inosanto lineage instructor, Sifu Dan's continued experience has helped allot.

Jun Fan is characterized by mobile footwork, quick hand and kicking skills, 5 ways of attack, trapping, trapping to grappling, adaption, flow, forward pressure etc...

Only draw backs in my opinion is the fact that Bruce would not have wanted it to freeze in time, it was to continue and adapt and progress. This is where Jeet Kune Do comes in, it is the continued development along personal levels of what was begun in Jun Fan. Some things that Bruce Lee taught fit the time he was in and the fighters he was facing, if he were alive today, he would have for sure modified some of the things, not a major overhaul, but modification due to circumstances.

More experience with Muay Thai fighters, experience with the new generation grapplers etc.. Again this is up to US to continue this work, we are still here, HIS spirit is still here, his philosophy is still here.

Jun Fan is what bruce Lee gave us to see where to go, a map and a light. He showed us what was possible. it's a very fine base, a great starting point and HIGHLY functional even to this day.

Hope that helps some.
 
B

BostonberAlles

Guest
Nice post Makoto. :)

From my perspective, Jun Fan Gung Fu seems like a very good 'style' to use. I'm actually in the process of using it when training with my group.

Personally, Jun Fan Gung Fu (and from what I've learned from it) has helped me a lot in fighting and training for real life scenarios, as the boxing-esque aspect of it helped me use my hands more efficiently. The power generation techniques that are used for punching and striking are also very good.
Basically - It has some awesome techniques inside it, and some great strategies. But it's nothing extensive, and nothing advanced. If I may use an analogy... It's currently my 'cornerstone' to build on others, like Judo, Muay Thai, Kali, Chin Na, and others.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
Is there a curriculum for Jun Fan Gung Fu that is widely accepted? Is it just what is in Bruce Lee's book on the subject?
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
makoto-dojo said:
Jun Fan has great hands and kicking, great infighting in terms of trapping, sectoring etc. Good entries, a good functional bridge to grappling, strategy, great training methods etc. Jun Fan Gung Fu I feel is a very good system, especially if you learn from an Inosanto lineage instructor, Sifu Dan's continued experience has helped allot.

Jun Fan is characterized by mobile footwork, quick hand and kicking skills, 5 ways of attack, trapping, trapping to grappling, adaption, flow, forward pressure etc...

Only draw backs in my opinion is the fact that Bruce would not have wanted it to freeze in time, it was to continue and adapt and progress. This is where Jeet Kune Do comes in, it is the continued development along personal levels of what was begun in Jun Fan.

Your description makes Jun Fan sound very much like JKD already! What were the differences?
 

JPR

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 17, 2004
Messages
123
Reaction score
7
For many, Jun Fan Gung Fu is the core / basis / seed of JKD. That is why they sound so much alike. I think that you could distinguish between the two (if you are so inclined) by realizing that Jun Fan Gung Fu (from now on JFGF) is a static body of material. What ever Sigung Lee wrote / taught is all that JFGF is or ever can be. JKD, on the other hand, isn't a static body of material limited to Lee's writings (unless you start the Concepts / Orginial debate which I will not).

I will give you two other reasons as to why I believe that JFGF and JKD are simular. First, they have the same founder, and while I believe he moved away from teaching JFGF, he didn't abandond the core of what he taught. Second, the principles of combat / motion that are being taught are the same. Such things as strong side forward, nearest weapon to nearest target, efficient motion, ect. are in both.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
I can see the static/evolving distinction. That makes sense!

So, is JFGF basically what's in the book he wrote on Gung Fu?
 

achilles

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
111
Reaction score
3
The Tao of Chinese Gung Fu represents Bruce Lee's training when he was training primarily in wing chun with influence from a few other chinese kung fu systems such as mantis fist, bak mei, etc. It was one phase in the history of Jun Fan.

I'm with JPR. The transition from Jun Fan to JKD in today's terms represents Bruce Lee's transition from looking for the ultimate style to being beyond style. He described JKD as a circle with no circumfrence. A style or system in coventional terms has a center, or core set of tools and tactics, and a circumfrence, where the the limits of the style exist. For example, the headbutt is technically outside the circumfrence of Judo, kicking is outside the circumfrence of boxing, etc. One should also make the distinction between the real tools and tactics of a given system and their theoretical ideals (those that claim to have everything the martial arts world has to offer or however many thousand techniques). JKD on the other hand offers its student a center, or core set of tools and tactics, but no circumfrence. Many of my peers call the core Jun Fan, which may or may not be completely accurate. Never the less, the symbolic meaning is clear and it is a useful representation.

Ultimately, I think this is what makes the original vs. concepts argument non-existant. Too far to original side and you self limit and lose your adaptability. Too far to the concepts side and you ignore beautiful directness and simplicity of the original material (frequently to impress those around you with your breadth of knowledge rather than to finish the job at hand). We strive for thorough and authentic knowledge of the original material to use as a matrix for future research and development.
 

James Kovacich

Senior Master
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
2,900
Reaction score
50
Location
San Jose, Ca.
achilles said:
Ultimately, I think this is what makes the original vs. concepts argument non-existant. Too far to original side and you self limit and lose your adaptability. Too far to the concepts side and you ignore beautiful directness and simplicity of the original material (frequently to impress those around you with your breadth of knowledge rather than to finish the job at hand). We strive for thorough and authentic knowledge of the original material to use as a matrix for future research and development.
Excellent!
 

Cthulhu

Senior Master
Founding Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 1, 2001
Messages
4,526
Reaction score
28
Location
Florida
I think another thing some people seem to forget is that, ultimately, whatever JKD you end up with will be YOUR JKD. Jun Fan Gung Fu can be seen merely as a starting point on your road to discovering your own personal 'expression' of martial arts.

Jun Fan Gung Fu, and ultimately whatever JKD is being forced upon you, is just a vehicle to get you somewhere. When you get there, you don't need to carry it around on your back anymore. I think too many people think Jun Fan = JKD and their own personal expression is not even in the equation.

Cthulhu
on the verge of rambling
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
Cthulhu said:
Jun Fan Gung Fu, and ultimately whatever JKD is being forced upon you, is just a vehicle to get you somewhere. When you get there, you don't need to carry it around on your back anymore.

I thought that was true of JKD but not really of JFGF, which was a more 'set' art? Certainly, I believe it of JKD.
 

James Kovacich

Senior Master
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2002
Messages
2,900
Reaction score
50
Location
San Jose, Ca.
Cthulhu said:
I think another thing some people seem to forget is that, ultimately, whatever JKD you end up with will be YOUR JKD. Jun Fan Gung Fu can be seen merely as a starting point on your road to discovering your own personal 'expression' of martial arts.

Jun Fan Gung Fu, and ultimately whatever JKD is being forced upon you, is just a vehicle to get you somewhere. When you get there, you don't need to carry it around on your back anymore. I think too many people think Jun Fan = JKD and their own personal expression is not even in the equation.

Cthulhu
on the verge of rambling
Thats what has been said by Bruce.

BUT by "ones own choosing" to teach the original as taught to them BEFORE achieving "ones own expression" is correct because IT IS left up to the individual. Whats wrong is to call "something" Jun Fan but to leave out what it is.

In JKD, the final phase, one can discard whatever they chosse to be functional but that is the final phase.

If one teaches JKD from a concept point of view and they skip Jun Fan, then they should admit it. It is JKD conceptual which is acceptable because that is what we all strive for.

We just have differant paths "getting there."

It's easy for people to "interpet" what other people say but it is another game to "do it."

I know I get into these conversations about "what it is" because its almost hard not to. But with all the Trashy BS flying in the JKD world I want to make one thing clear. I have done what my Sifu before has done. We recognized the "fuss" over the "what is" and we did what Bruce said and we dropped the JKD name. That alone should clear up a bit of "our way." That is what it is, "our way."

But Sifu's teachings are the closest to James Lee's of all the original Oakland students. They chose that way as their way."

Original Method gets slammed for being that way but I want to let it be known. After Sifu and Sigungs article came out in June 2002.
(you can find it here under the link for articles) http://www.taoofgungfu.com/

Several schools from the LA area came to visit Sifu to see what they were about. He spanked them and sent them home. Bustillos and Kimuras students were 2 schools that showed up. Theres nothing wrong with the Original Method.
 

joeygil

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
1
To answer the question, which I believe is, wether on not Jun Fan / JKD is any good.

I think so. I've been training almost exclusively in JF at the Inosanto Academy for the past year or so. It's fast, it's very efficient, especially compared to most traditional arts.

I agree that it doesn't deal with grappling very well. As Sifu Dan said, MA "technology" have progressed to a point where you need to have good grappling skills to stay "state of the art." Unfortunately, Sijo Bruce Lee never got around to adapting his art to where we're at now for obvious reasons.


So is it any good? That may depend on your application. Do you plan on going into the MMA ring or octogon? If so, you need to do serious cross-training with ground work*.

Do you want to be able to defend yourself if you need to? Then it's great. Lot of sensible self defense techniques, like finger jab/flicks to the eyes or throat, combination punches...


*MMA tournament rules probably work against JF, due to the bar on fingers to the eyes and such.
 

Dancing Dragon

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 29, 2005
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Location
Grandview, Missouri
akja said:
Thats what has been said by Bruce.

BUT by "ones own choosing" to teach the original as taught to them BEFORE achieving "ones own expression" is correct because IT IS left up to the individual. Whats wrong is to call "something" Jun Fan but to leave out what it is.

In JKD, the final phase, one can discard whatever they chosse to be functional but that is the final phase.

If one teaches JKD from a concept point of view and they skip Jun Fan, then they should admit it. It is JKD conceptual which is acceptable because that is what we all strive for.

We just have differant paths "getting there."
I love the point made here. After studying Jun Fan/JKD for a few years I came to the realization that I began where Bruce Lee ended in his training! Allow me to explain.

As we all know, Bruce Lee didn't just burst onto the scene with JKD, he began with Wing Chun, and he studied many other styles and came to the conlcusion that was known as JKD. One day after class it hit me that I never studied Wing Chun, Fencing, Western Boxing, Savate, or any other style that JKD derived itself from. I felt like what I was learning was somewhat imcomplete, like I didn't have a proper foundation, so I began studying Wing Chun and other forms of Gung Fu, making an attempt to return to the roots of JKD. Learning more forms and looking deeper into Bruce's roots allowed me to further understand his philosophies and apply them to my interpretation of JKD.

You're right akja, different paths indeed.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
joeygil said:
I've been training almost exclusively in JF at the Inosanto Academy for the past year or so.

Thanks for the info.! I have to ask...with so much that's offered there, why do you study just this one system?
 

joeygil

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
1
arnisador said:
Thanks for the info.! I have to ask...with so much that's offered there, why do you study just this one system?


Sorry for the super late reply. I need to check this site a lot more often.


Why? Mostly a lack of time and an abundance of laziness.

I'm currently in grad school for my doctorate, so I don't have as much time as I'd like. So I do primarily 3 classes a week, Jun Fan 1, 2, and 3.

Why JF specifically? I guess I really like it. I've studied FMA and Silat before, and studied at places where everything was mixed (so I'd get some Muay Thai in too).


I guess I'm not as gung ho about it as a lot of the other students, who do every class. I guess I have too many other things going on to dedicate myself that much.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
Fair enough! I now study at a school with half a dozen different classes, and for issues of time and personal interest I only take two of them (JKD and FMA). I wish I had time to add iaido, praying mantis kung fu, and any of the dozens of other arts offered locally, but I haven't the time!

What are you studying in grad. school?
 

joeygil

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
120
Reaction score
1
arnisador said:
Fair enough! I now study at a school with half a dozen different classes, and for issues of time and personal interest I only take two of them (JKD and FMA). I wish I had time to add iaido, praying mantis kung fu, and any of the dozens of other arts offered locally, but I haven't the time!

What are you studying in grad. school?

Sorry again for the super late reply. As you've noticed, I don't check this board enough.

I'm studying Molecular Biology. Specifically gene therapy using a viral vector.


Anyways. Just to get my conditioning in, I'm starting to do the straight Muay Thai class. It's also a good way for me to get my Left lead practice in.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,564
Reaction score
439
Location
Terre Haute, IN
joeygil said:
I'm studying Molecular Biology. Specifically gene therapy using a viral vector.

Ah, OK. I'm on sabbatical and working on phylogeny (from the mathematical end).


Just to get my conditioning in, I'm starting to do the straight Muay Thai class. It's also a good way for me to get my Left lead practice in.

Sounds good! Yes, JKD does tend to focus strongly on the strong-side lead. But, who knows how you'll be positioned when attacked?
 

Latest Discussions

Top