Seeking for the truth...Authentic Jeet Kune Do ? or.... BS?

[myuserame]

I just joined a JKD school and im not sure if they re teaching authentic Jeet Kune Do (the authentic bruce lees art). They teach .... or they say that they teach ' Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do' else as 'Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Gung Fu' ........ what is the different between jkd concepts (Burton Richardson and Dan Insonato) and Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Gung Fu ? someone very skilled > WHAT IS REAL FINALLY? their page is : http://www.hardcorejkd.com/jkd/academy/index.php < SOMEONE Take a look and please tell me..... Are the ******* real or some ****** rippers???





<<MOD NOTE: Please watch the language>>

 

[IFAJKD]

I will try to address a few of your questions:
Original JKD and JKDC (concepts) differs in several areas. Concepts approach trains in Bruce Lee's JKD as it was when Bruce Lee was alive. Concepts Instructors also desend from Dan Inosanto and as such train in each phase of Jeet Kune Do, from it's various forms of Jun Fan Gung Fu, Tao of Chinese Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do. Dan Inosanto was the only one ever certified in all of these. From that point, The same concepts that make JKD alive are also applied to specific additional arts. Most often associated with Filipino martial arts, Muay Thai, Savate, Silat, western Boxing and Brazillian Jujitsu to name the most common. These arts continue in the direction Guru Dan Inosanto believedBruce Lee was going (keep in mind that JKD was meant to be evolutionary and that is that it is always adjusting. This being the case it could never have evolved but had to always be "evolving" (I hope that is making sense)
Original Jeet Kune Do is simply training only that which Bruce taught no more no less. As for this school you are exploring, it is an Original JKD school, (some may prefer to differentiate between JKD and Jun Fan) In any event it is an original school. The quality and legitimacy of the instruction under Davis is to be determined by you I guess. There are many varried opinions on him. The hard core JKDC people I know don't pay him much attention but the OJKD people may. It really is up to you. There are people who train under him on this site and they seem to have favorable things to say ????????????You decide based on what you are looking for. Bottom line is there are very hard felt politics here and it gets very ugly as at leatst one or two of these threads will attest to.
Good luck and good training. seek out JM Drake he will give you better info on Davis than I can.

 

[Samurai]

Sifu Davis teaches Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. He does not teach the Concepts side of things.

He says that he has trained with a number of Bruce Lee's original students. Most people claim that he is very good. I have not seen him in action.

Thanks
jeremy bays

 

[KennethKu]

Here is Bruce Lee's article :LIBERATE YOURSELF FROM CLASSICAL KARATE . In which he explained what JKD is.

LIBERATE YOURSELF FROM CLASSICAL KARATE

By Bruce Lee


HE TEACHES AND EXPLAINS WHAT IS JEET KUNE DO

I am the first to admit that any attempt to crystallize Jeet Kune Do into a written article is no easy task. Perhaps to avoid making a 'thing' out of a 'process'. I have not until now personally written an article on JKD. Indeed, it is difficult to explain what Jeet Kune Do is, although it may be easier to explain what it is not.

Let me begin with a Zen story. The story might be familiar to some, but I repeat it for it's appropriateness. Look upon this story as a means of limbering up one's senses, one's attitude and one's mind to make them pliable and receptive. You need that to understand this article, otherwise you might as well forget reading any further.

A learned man once went to a Zen teacher to inquire about Zen. As the Zen teacher explained, the learned man would frequently interrupt him with remarks like, "Oh, yes, we have that too...." and so on. Finally the Zen teacher stopped talking and began to serve tea to the learned man. He poured the cup full, and then kept pouring until the cup overflowed.

"Enough!" the learned man once more interrupted. "No more can go into the cup!"

"Indeed, I see," answered the Zen teacher. "If you do not first empty the cup, how can you taste my cup of tea?"

I hope my comrades in the martial arts will read the following paragraphs with open-mindedness leaving all the burdens of preconceived opinions and conclusions behind. This act, by the way, has in itself liberating power. After all, the usefulness of the cup is in it's emptiness.

Make this article relate to yourself, because though it is on JKD, it is primarily concerned with the blossoming of a martial artist---not a "Chinese" martial artist, a "Japanese" martial artist, etc. A martial artist is a human being first. Just as nationalities have nothing to do with one's humanity, so they have nothing to do with martial arts. Leave your protective shell of isolation and relate 'directly' to what is being said. Return to your senses by ceasing all the intervening intellectual mumbo jumbo. Remember that life is a constant process of relating. Remember too, that I seek neither your approval nor to influence you towards my way of thinking. I will be more than satisfied if, as a result of this article, you begin to investigate everything for yourself and cease to uncritically accept prescribed formulas that dictate "this is this" and "that is that".


ON CHOICELESS OBSERVATION

Suppose several persons who are trained in different styles of combative arts witness an all out street fight. I am sure that we would hear different versions from each of these stylists. This is quite understandable for one cannot see a fight (or anything else) "as is" as long as he is blinded by his chosen point of view, i.e. style, and he will view the fight through the lens of his particular conditioning. Fighting, "as is," is simple and total. It is not limited to your perspective conditioning as a Chinese martial artist. True observation begins when one sheds set patterns and true freedom of expression occurs when one is beyond systems.

Before we examine Jeet Kune Do, let's consider exactly what a "classical" martial art style really is. To begin with, we must recognize the incontrovertible fact that regardless of their many colorful origins (by a wise, mysterious monk, by a special messenger in a dream, in a holy revelation, etc.) styles are created by men. A style should never be considered gospel truth, the laws and principles of which can never be violated. Man, the living, creating individual, is always more important than any established style.

It is conceivable that a long time ago a certain martial artist discovered some partial truth. During his lifetime, the man resisted the temptation to organize this partial truth, although this is a common tendency in a man's search for security and certainty in life. After his death, his students took "his" hypotheses, "his" postulates, "his" method and turned them into law. Impressive creeds were then invented, solemn reinforcing ceremonies prescribed, rigid philosophy and patterns formulated, and son on, until finally an institution was erected. So, what originated as one man's intuition of some sort of personal fluidity has been transformed into solidified, fixed knowledge, complete with organized classified responses presented in a logical order. In so doing, the well-meaning, loyal followers have not only made this knowledge a holy shrine, but also a tomb in which they have buried the founder's wisdom.

But distortion does not necessarily end here. In reaction to "the other truth," another martial artist, or possible a dissatisfied disciple, organizes an opposite approach--such as the "soft" style versus the "hard" style, the "internal" school versus the "external" school, and all these separate nonsenses. Soon this opposite faction also becomes a large organization, with its own laws and patterns. A rivalry begins, with each style claiming to possess the "truth" to the exclusions of all others.

At best, styles are merely parts dissected from a unitary whole. All styles require adjustment, partiality, denials, condemnation and a lot of self- justification. The solutions they purport to provide are the very cause of the problem, because they limit and interfere with our natural growth and obstruct the way to genuine understanding. Divisive by nature, styles keep men 'apart' from each other rather than 'unite' them.


TRUTH CANNOT BE STRUCTURED OR DEFINED

One cannot express himself fully when imprisoned by a confining style. Combat "as is" is total, and it includes all the "is" as well as "is not," without favorite lines or angles. Lacking boundaries, combat is always fresh, alive and constantly changing. Your particular style, your personal inclinations and your physical makeup are all 'parts' of combat, but they do not constitute the 'whole' of combat. Should your responses become dependent upon any single part, you will react in terms of what "should be" rather than to the reality of the ever-changing "what is." Remember that while the whole is evidenced in all its parts, an isolated part, efficient or not, does not constitute the whole.

Prolonged repetitious drillings will certainly yield mechanical precision and security of that kind comes from any routine. However, it is exactly this kind of "selective" security or "crutch" which limits or blocks the total growth of a martial artist. In fact, quite a few practitioners develop such a liking for and dependence on their "crutch" that they can no longer walk without it. Thus, anyone special technique, however cleverly designed is actually a hinderance.

Let it be understood once and for all that I have NOT invented a new style, composite, or modification. I have in no way set Jeet Kune Do within a distinct form governed by laws that distinguish it from "this" style or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my comrades from bondage to styles, patterns and doctrines.

What, then, is Jeet Kune Do? Literally, "jeet" means to intercept or to stop; "kune" is the fist; and "do" is the way, the ultimate reality---the way of the intercepting fist. Do remember, however, that "Jeet Kune Do" is merely a convenient name. I am not interested with the term itself; I am interested in its effect of liberation when JKD is used as a mirror for self-examination.

Unlike a "classical" martial art, there is no series of rules or classification of technique that constitutes a distinct "Jeet Kune Do" method of fighting. JKD is not a form of special conditioning with its own rigid philosophy. It looks at combat not from a single angle, but from all possible angles. While JKD utilizes all the ways and means to serve its end (after all, efficiency is anything that scores), it is bound by none and is therefore free. In other words, JKD possesses everything, but is in itself possessed by nothing.

Therefore, to try and define JKD in terms of a distinct style---be it gung-fu, karate, street fighting, Bruce Lee's martial art, etc.---is to completely miss its meaning. It's teaching simply cannot be confined with a system. Since JKD is at once "this" and "not this", it neither opposes nor adheres to any style. To understand this fully, one must transcend from the duality of "for" and "against" into one organic unity which is without distinctions. Understanding of JKD is direct intuition of this unity.

There are no prearranged sets or "kata" in the teaching of JKD, nor are they necessary. Consider the subtle difference between "having no form" and having "no form"; the first is ignorance, the second is transcendence. Through instinctive body feeling, each of us 'knows' our own most efficient and dynamic manner of achieving effective leverage, balance in motion, economical use of energy, etc. Patterns, techniques or forms touch only the fringe of genuine understanding. The core of understanding lies in the individual mind, and until that is touched, everything is uncertain and superficial. Truth cannot be perceived until we come to fully understand ourselves and our potentials. After all, 'knowledge in the martial arts ultimately means self-knowledge.'

At this point you may ask, "How do I gain this knowledge?" That you will have to find out all by yourself. You must accept the fact that there is in help but self-help. For the same reason I cannot tell you how to "gain" freedom, since freedom exists within you. I cannot tell you what 'not' to do, I cannot tell you what you 'should' do, since that would be confining you to a particular approach. Formulas can only inhibit freedom, externally dictated prescriptions only squelch creativity and assure mediocrity. Bear in mind that the freedom that accrues from self-knowledge cannot be acquired through strict adherence to a formula; we do not suddenly "become" free, we simply "are" free.

Learning is definitely not mere imitation, nor is it the ability to accumulate and regurgitate fixed knowledge. Learning is a constant process of discovery, a process without end. In JKD we begin not by accumulation but by discovering the cause of our ignorance, a discovery that involves a shedding process.

Unfortunately, most students in the martial arts are conformists. Instead of learning to depend on themselves for expression, they blindly follow their instructors, no longer feeling alone, and finding security in mass imitation. The product of this imitation is a dependent mind. Independent inquiry, which is essential to genuine understanding, is sacrificed. Look around the martial arts and witness the assortment of routine performers, trick artists, desensitized robots, glorifiers of the past and so on---- all followers or exponents of organized despair.

How often are we told by different "sensei" of "masters" that the martial arts are life itself? But how many of them truly understand what they are saying? Life is a constant movement---rhythmic as well as random; life is a constant change and not stagnation. Instead of choicelessly flowing with this process of change, many of these "masters", past and present, have built an illusion of fixed forms, rigidly subscribing to traditional concepts and techniques of the art, solidifying the ever-flowing, dissecting the totality.

The most pitiful sight is to see sincere students earnestly repeating those imitative drills, listening to their own screams and spiritual yells. In most cases, the means these "sensei" offer their students are so elaborate that the student must give tremendous attention to them, until gradually he loses sight of the end. The students end up performing their methodical routines as a mere conditioned response, rather than 'responding to' "what is." They no longer "listen" to circumstances; they "recite" their circumstances. These pour souls have unwittingly become trapped in the miasma of classical martial arts training.

A teacher, a really good sensei, is never a 'giver' of "truth"; he is a guide, a 'pointer' to the truth that the student must discover for himself. A good teacher, therefore, studies each student individually and encourages the student to explore himself, both internally and externally, until, ultimately, the student is integrated with his being. For example, a skillful teacher might spur his student's growth by confronting him with certain frustrations. A good teacher is a catalyst. Besides possessing a deep understanding, he must also have a responsive mind with great flexibility and sensitivity.


A FINGER POINTING TO THE MOON

There is no standard in total combat, and expression must be free. this liberating truth is a reality only in so far as it is 'experienced and lived' by the individual himself; it is a truth that transcends styles or disciplines. Remember, too, that Jeet Kune Do is merely a term, a label to be used as a boat to get one across; once across, it is to be discarded and not carried on one's back.

These few paragraphs are, at best, a "finger pointing to the moon." Please do not take the finger to be the moon or fix your gaze so intently on the finger as to miss all the beautiful sights of heaven. After all, the usefulness of the finger is in pointing away from itself to the light which illumines finger and all. ---

 

[KennethKu]

If you disagree with his views, that is ok. As he put it, his way is not your way, his truth is not your truth. He did not want people to just copy him nor to agree with him. Rather he only intended to stimulate the readers to think and explore beyond the boundary of their respective MA.

A lot of his criticism against MA are no longer valid today, as most competent schools teach their students the theory behind the techniques, rather then just asking the students to ape the motion only.

 

[jmdrake]

Hello Mr. myusername,

Interesting name there. IFAJKD has done a good job of explaining the differences between OJKD and JKDC. I've seen both extremes. Let my add my own personal philosophy. I believe that there were many techniques, attributes, training methods, strategies ect. that Bruce Lee used that are valuable to today's martial artist. These things make up what I call OJKD. I think it's something worth preserving. At the same time I do realize that Bruce Lee was a "work in progress". I'm certain that he would have kept experimenting if he hadn't died. So where does that leave me as a martial artist? Well I do experiment with various things, but I try to keep the JKD part seperate. It's just easier for me to catorgorize things that way. Now I've heard that some JKDC people actually do it this way too. Super! I've come to the conclusion that much of the confusion over JKD comes from syntax and semantics than anything else. I recall one Dan Inosanto interview where he said something to the effect of "I may show up to a seminar one day and teach JKD and the next day and teach Kali." Hey, I've got no problem with that!

With regards to Lamar Davis' school, it is definitely for real! He is a talented martial artist and I've heard this assessment even from some of his critics. As for OJKD vs JKDC training you need to look at your own interests/motives ect. If you want to learn Muy Thai you won't learn it from Lamar. The same goes true if you want to learn BJJ. (Although he does have some "stand up" grappling in his curriculum). If you want to learn JFJKD (which from what I gather is the core of Dan's curriculum also) you can certainly learn that from Lamar. It's all what you are interested in.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[seekeroftruth]

I feel like I have to reply in some way to this post just because of my screen name! LOL! Mr. Drake... You, in my opinion, have an outstanding grip on what I think the concepts approach is. A lot of people think that when you train JKDC, you lose the original Jun Fan Gung Fu, which is not always true. I know I tend to seperate arts when I teach and I do not call Kali JKD. I call it Kali. It is there to supplement my Jun Fan Gung Fu and help me develop my own JKD. Very well spoken Mr. Drake. BTW, we need to get together and train!! I am starting a seperate Jun Fan Gung Fu class and I would love for you to visit and let me know what you think. Keep in touch.
Seeker of Truth

 

[jmdrake]

Originally posted by seekeroftruth

I feel like I have to reply in some way to this post just because of my screen name! LOL! Mr. Drake... You, in my opinion, have an outstanding grip on what I think the concepts approach is. A lot of people think that when you train JKDC, you lose the original Jun Fan Gung Fu, which is not always true. I know I tend to seperate arts when I teach and I do not call Kali JKD. I call it Kali. It is there to supplement my Jun Fan Gung Fu and help me develop my own JKD. Very well spoken Mr. Drake. BTW, we need to get together and train!! I am starting a seperate Jun Fan Gung Fu class and I would love for you to visit and let me know what you think. Keep in touch.
Seeker of Truth

Sounds great! You've got mail.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[James Kovacich]

Not all of the "OJKD" students evolved into "Jeet Kune Do"!!
Some of them did what Bruce wanted them to do!!
They grew there own branches on the tree!!
Heres mi sifus site:
http://www.geocities.com/Tao_Of_Gung_Fu/The_Nucleus_Of_Gung_Fu.html

My Sigung was one of James Lees longest students and they've built upon Bruce and James original teachings and are still evolving.
THEY DON'T JUST TEACH WHAT WAS TAUGHT 30 YEARS AGO.
AKJA

 

[Nightingale]

Wow! loads of info in this thread!