Mekugi said:
OK how about this angle:
How are those techniques any different from the kata found in preliminary Kodokan Judo?
Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?
How is it that wrestling can trace itself back to Western military practices, but it isn't a martial art? Judo by itself, with regards to it's history alone (and not the history that it founded itself on), does not extend beyond being practiced by any military body past the 1900's. Greco-roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan Judo. The Turkish Wrestling, for instance, goes back to the 1640's and was founded by the military as well.
Hi Mekugi,
Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).
The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata. Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata. There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest. Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [
SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.
Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely.
There is no 'kata' existing within western combat sports such as boxing or wrestling.
Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo. Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference. Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn.
Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.
My response: I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla! There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling. If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
As I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'. Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union. The Kodokan reluctantly included a
modification of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.
Regarding Lineage:
The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it. Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'. The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo! Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact. It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.
Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event. Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!
You mentioned that
"Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo". Is there a hidden point here? This observation is a bit ambiguous. Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years - so what is it you are asking? Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?
The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.
And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882? Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.
As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu. And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.
All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.
Yours in judo.
