Joe Lewis

Doc

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2002
Messages
4,196
Reaction score
136
Location
Southern California
According to my instructor, Ted Sumner, the way they used to spar back in the early days was heavy on contact, a basic disregard for the notion of rules and the notion that a target might be off-limits for some reason, and continuous fighting without regard for points. Basically, they would face off and beat the living **** out of each other. Lots of injuries.

this caused them problems when they brought this method to the tournaments with them. It frequently got them disqualified because they were not playing by the rules.

So Al Tracy hired Joe Lewis to teach them how to fight successfully in tournaments. Joe knew how to play the game well, he was very successful as well as very tough, and he taught winning strategies for tournament competition. What the Tracy students in the early days did not need was help in winning fights, however. They just needed an attitude adjustment in order to be successful in the tournaments.

Ted has faced off against Joe Lewis, and indicated that Joe was extremely good, and could be quite intimidating. But he told me that Joe never studied the Tracy system. In fact, he has said that Joe has commented that he wished he would have taken the time to learn a complete system, such as Tracy kenpo. His skill and time was mostly spent on fighting and developing the skills necessary for that kind of face-to-face competition combat, and never really learned a complete martial system. Joe was very good at fighting, and was very very tough. When he was a student he was awarded rank because he could beat all the higher ranking students in the dojo where he studied. Not because of knowledge of a complete system.

I have never heard it suggested that Al Dacascos taught forms to Tracy people, or at least not at Al Tracy's request to formally incorporate material into the system. It is certainly possible that some particular Tracy students may have studied with Mr. Dacascos and learned his stuff, but this has never been codified into the Tracy system.

Tracys does have a number of Chinese forms that do not exist in other kenpo lineages. A lot of this material came from Jimmy Wing Woo, and some other people, but I've never heard of any of it coming from Al Dacascos. Ted has also mentioned that Mr. Dacascos had operated a Tracy school at some time, but what exactly he was teaching, if it was the complete Tracy system or something else, I do not know.

Yep!
 

Danjo

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,378
Reaction score
60
Location
Fullerton, CA
I have never heard it suggested that Al Dacascos taught forms to Tracy people, or at least not at Al Tracy's request to formally incorporate material into the system. It is certainly possible that some particular Tracy students may have studied with Mr. Dacascos and learned his stuff, but this has never been codified into the Tracy system.

Tracys does have a number of Chinese forms that do not exist in other kenpo lineages. A lot of this material came from Jimmy Wing Woo, and some other people, but I've never heard of any of it coming from Al Dacascos. Ted has also mentioned that Mr. Dacascos had operated a Tracy school at some time, but what exactly he was teaching, if it was the complete Tracy system or something else, I do not know.

Could be. I was told that by several people, but the extent of his involvement, or how official it was I have no way of knowing. When I get the chance, I'll try to follow up on what I was told and see if I can get more details.
 

Dave Simmons

Green Belt
Joined
Feb 27, 2002
Messages
117
Reaction score
2
Location
St. Paul MN
Well, I've heard different from those that were there, but who cares? How about putting up that forms video of yours again? I know Youtube could host it for free. Hard to get people as highly ranked as you demonstrating things the way you did, so you should really think about sharing your wisdom and skill.

Danjo since you just love to stir the pot I have some "info"! The vid clip you mention, I performed with power and commitment, the cartridge was given back to the person who filmed the series of self defense techniques and Short Form I. Unfortunately your limited background in Tracy's circa 1966 is evident. In short the form was demonstrated as I had learned it.

Since you mention YouTube would you please explain to me why your "continous fighting" match looked like you had a bad day or you were confused between fighting or flight or dancing?! One last thing you might want to consider, do not commit on things until all sources are validated via all parties.
 

KenpoDave

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 20, 2002
Messages
884
Reaction score
33
Location
Shreveport, LA
So, it appears that Al Dacascos taught forms while operating a Tracy's school in Denver, CO. It does not appear that Al Dacascos was ever hired by the Tracy's to teach forms.

As a side note, Al Dacascos was one of the instructors at the first Gathering of Eagles in 1999, and forms were not what he taught. He focused on the bridging the gap principle using the backfist and running reverse punch, and some slide shuffle kicking.
 

Danjo

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
1,378
Reaction score
60
Location
Fullerton, CA
Danjo since you just love to stir the pot I have some "info"! The vid clip you mention, I performed with power and commitment, the cartridge was given back to the person who filmed the series of self defense techniques and Short Form I. Unfortunately your limited background in Tracy's circa 1966 is evident. In short the form was demonstrated as I had learned it.

Since you mention YouTube would you please explain to me why your "continous fighting" match looked like you had a bad day or you were confused between fighting or flight or dancing?! One last thing you might want to consider, do not commit on things until all sources are validated via all parties.

Power and commitment? LOL. If that's what you want to call it. At least my vids are still out there eh? Plus I won.

Too bad about you giving that tape back and not having access to another camcorder. Convienient too. Pictures are worth a thousand words etc.---sigh.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,422
Reaction score
2,856
Location
San Francisco
Gentlemen, please stop the sniping. It doesn't do anyone any good, and it doesn't make anyone look good, including the sniper.

Personalities sometimes clash here on MT, I know I've experienced that myself as well. It's often tempting to look for an opportunity to get in a jibe at someone. But "an eye for an eye" makes the whole world blind.

Please walk away from an insult, perceived or otherwise, and move on. And please consider what you are writing before you hit the Submit Reply button. Ask yourself if it is really necessary, or if it is just stirring up a hornet's nest.

It's just tiresome and really unnecessary.

Thanks.
 

NubreedKaliSilat

Yellow Belt
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
40
Reaction score
1
Location
Denver Colorado
I am a senior in WHKD, I know when talking with Gm Dacascos..About his time spent working with Tracy International, he told me he was more or less on the business side of the deal. If a Tracy's school was having problems he would go there and trouble shoot the problems, and get the school back in the black. As for teaching forms, they never was added to the Tracy system, accept for maybe Black Belts who learned them on their own and added them into their personal training. I remember reading some where something about there not being any floor sweeps, groin kicks, or butterfly kicks in Tracy's Kenpo until he came aboard. I maybe mistake on the style he was talking about it was so long ago...There are others more history oriented then me..on where things where picked up?
Here is a picture of him outside a Tracy's school when he working for Tracy International...
al.jpg



Here is a list of our Kajukenbo Chuan Fa/WHKD forms:

Hau Kuen (hard monkey form) Southern Kempo/Chuan Fa hard Style form
Fau Yip (floating leaves) Southern style Soft Sil-Lum Hand Blocking set
Limpo (continuous step) Northern Sil-Lum basic form
Siu Wan (small circle internal strength) Northern Sil-Lum Flow set
Sui Lum Pai (south hand way) Southern Sil-Lum Intermediate form
Pak Sil-Lum #6 (northern way six) Northern arial beginning flow set
Pak Sil-Lum #7 (northern way seven) Northern flow set
San Chen (internal development form) Central style
Law Hon Kuen (monk form#1) Northern advanced footwork
Fu Hak (tiger and crane) Southern Sil-Lum Hung Gar Kin
 

Latest Discussions

Top