simplicity
Green Belt
Master Wong isn't a Jeet Kune Do Instructor, plain & simple folks...!
JKD without Wing Chun?
- Thread starter Thunder Foot
- Start date
"Wingchunguy" Have you actually studied legit JKD, or are you just spouting off? I've met a lot of folks who have studied WC/VT/WT and related arts like JKD who could refute your assertions and back it up. Arrogant, biased and unsubstantiated talk like this just hurts the reputation of our martial arts. And incites unfortunate incidents. I mean the first thing that went through my mind when I read your post is "Which of the 10 TWC concepts was Emin Boztepe missing when he confronted William Cheung some 25 years ago?"
The fact is that there is no perfect system, and no perfect fighter. There are however a lot of great systems and fighters out there, so how about showing a little mutual respect?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Yes, yes you should
knight2000
Yellow Belt
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2007
- Messages
- 33
- Reaction score
- 3
Well Beuce himself said JKD is primarily wing chun, fencing, and boxing. Dan Inosanto is the one that said JKD is made of of 60 percent wing chun.
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #45
you know reading through this thread again, I'm going to correct myself by saying that I don't believe in the existence of Jun Fan Gung Fu as it's own material. It was just the name of his school (Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute), and the Wing Chun that he taught seeming got labeled with the same name by people that had no concept of what Wing Chun was.
I'm really just echoing the words of some of Lee's students, but with that said I thinkvit would be near impossible without Wing Chun.
I'm really just echoing the words of some of Lee's students, but with that said I thinkvit would be near impossible without Wing Chun.
Kframe
Black Belt
You guys should check out the China town JKD folks, and their take on it. They have a forum here. http://jkdtalk.com/ Some Good JKD instructors chat there from time to time.
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #47
Thank you for the suggestion, I've seen some great discussion there as well while also enjoying the folks here at MartialTalk. It was actually commentary from Tim Tackett during one of his phone interviews of his first hand experience where he debunked the myth of Jun Fan Gung Fu as it's own inherent style; which lead me to look further into Bruce and his Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. It clarified some of my conclusions that I had derived over my years of practice.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Bruce Lee didn't train long in wing chun, but he was unbelievably quick at grasping the concepts. He was a very smart man in that respect.
blindsage
Master of Arts
If you haven't researched his training and teaching in Seattle, you don't have the whole picture.
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #50
Blindsage,
have you found anything that Bruce taught in Seattle that is outside of Wing Chun principles? Or Taky & co. for that matter?
have you found anything that Bruce taught in Seattle that is outside of Wing Chun principles? Or Taky & co. for that matter?
blindsage
Master of Arts
There's a lot that went on here in Seattle in term's of Bruce's evolving understanding and foundation. I haven't studied under any of his students, and I'm not a student of JKD, Jun Fan, NCKF but I am friendly with a number of Jesse Glover's students and some other knowledgeable folks that know a lot about what was going on in Seattle at the time. People focus significantly on his development once he left Seattle and only really talk to Taky about his development and history. There was a lot more going on, and lot more people to talk to.
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #52
It would be interesting to see. People often make the mistake of assuming Wing Chun is only this and only that. It has remained dynamic during the time of western introduction. Its principles have been warped and distorted under different names in attempts to explain that which is unfamiliar. Wing Chun principles are more than what our current JKD Community perceives, and it would be to our benefit to understand this.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I recently read in one of the books from Ip Chun where it was mentioned that Bruce Lee was looking to bring in some of the softer side of Wing Chun to JKD and was talking with Hong Kong Wing Chun group and Ip Man about it but Ip died before he was ready to work on that and the Bruce died a few months later. But this is only from one source as far as I know so it may or may not be true.
blindsage
Master of Arts
This book is a good starting point, if you can find it.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
This book is a good starting point, if you can find it.
Wouldn't mind reading it, and I found it...for $280 and that is a little to much for me....I shall keep looking
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #56
Great book, I have a copy as well as a few others from him. I love how he expands on the Wing Chun principles. I personally believe that in order for us to grow as a Community we need to respect the parent art Wing Chun, and understand that Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute was the name of his school where his Wing Chun was taught. How can we evolve past or have a base in that which we do not know? The deeper the root, the stronger it's branches.
Here's one of a many interviews where Tim Tackett explains that there was no Jun Fan Gung Fu... as well as Escrima not being part of the curriculum. No offense to anyone, but Tim was there: http://youtu.be/xBoFr5AtE9YKD. Our art is in need of a paradigm shift.
Here's one of a many interviews where Tim Tackett explains that there was no Jun Fan Gung Fu... as well as Escrima not being part of the curriculum. No offense to anyone, but Tim was there: http://youtu.be/xBoFr5AtE9YKD. Our art is in need of a paradigm shift.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Interesting Interview
I don't dispute that since I have so little background in JKD and Jun Fan Gong Fu and it sounds plausible. The man I trained with briefly always taught what he called Jun Fan Gong Fu before going to JKD. He also believed that to really understand JKD you needed a base of Wing Chun or Jun fan. But I did feel there was a difference based on applications demo of the teacher and the basic stance, but it could be that I was not there long enough to really understand what was going on. But it could simply be a “structure” difference like Tim Tackett mentioned between LA and Seattle. However when training with the group I saw absolutely no difference in the basic training of things.
I had a little background in Wing Chun, which may have colored my view of things, but I viewed Jun Fan as Wing Chun on Steroids. I did not know how much influence that little bit of Wing Chun had until I was training with the teacher on a heavy bag and he asked me how much Wing Chun I had trained because I was hitting the bag like a Wing Chun guy, and I had purposely not told him anything about my background.
blindsage
Master of Arts
No offense to Tim Tackett, but weren't a few people there? I honestly am not worried about the art. All arts end up as personal interpretations, and I really think that's part of what Bruce was getting at. But with all the discussion and debate and ego surrounding Bruce, my only real point is that people think they know a lot, but mostly based on easily available info, and interviews with the same few people over and over again. If someone really wants to know, then they should in engage in a detached study as a historian, anthropologist or a biographer would do. Throw out their pre-conceived notions, especially those ingrained by their teacher's biases, and go try to find out the information that no one has really delved into, and be willing to learn thing's are different than one has always believed. Otherwise, it's still limited conjecture, mostly from biased sources. Not that that can't be enough for us as individuals, but we should accept it as such, and how easily wrong it could be. I've studied Bruce a little, but never been especially obsessed and I don't have any personal ego or stake in it, but I have learned some things from knowledgeable sources that are very different from what most people believe and say about him, and I think it interesting that as big as Bruce is and how obsessed people are with him that more people haven't made an effort to come to Seattle and learn and make known more of what Bruce did here.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Ha! I found it for the same price. That much for a book that looks like an 8th grader assembled it? No thanks. Maybe it can be found online as a PDF.
OP
Thunder Foot
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #60
Blind, I find it interesting that Tackett takes his stance in this way. Yes there were others, but he's one of the only ones speaking out. The demand of the seminars coining the lesson plans in such a way as to eventually become that distinct teaching method. He said they also studied escrima, but that it was completely separate, also interesting.
JKD is more than merely an Art, and thereby requires more than an open interpretation to be efficient. I think that one thing the JKD Community does keep in common though, is the delving into new frames of thinking... whether JKDC, OJKD, or the JKD-INSPIRED. They all challenge each others thought processes to such degree that they remain seperated. Mainly due to a lack of common principles, without them Bruce's Legacy is subject to extinction. And it may not be important to everyone, but to those that train it is.
JKD is more than merely an Art, and thereby requires more than an open interpretation to be efficient. I think that one thing the JKD Community does keep in common though, is the delving into new frames of thinking... whether JKDC, OJKD, or the JKD-INSPIRED. They all challenge each others thought processes to such degree that they remain seperated. Mainly due to a lack of common principles, without them Bruce's Legacy is subject to extinction. And it may not be important to everyone, but to those that train it is.
