JKD Leg Obstruction Question

[Xue Sheng99]

I was reading this post and listen to the Tim Tackett interview linked by Thunder Foot which lead me to looking for an example of JKD obstruction. I found this video.

Is that a good example of JKD leg obstruction?If so the straight kick to the upper thigh is incredibly similar to a Xingyiquan kick application of piquan

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

To coordinate the leading foot landing with the punch is a very important concept in the XingYi and the Baji system.

 

[mook jong man]

The problem with that is , he is losing power in the kick because the force vectors are all wrong.
His upper body is going one way , and his lower body going in another.
In the Wing Chun version , Bong Gerk , the whole body is pivoted in the same direction as one unit utilising the whole body mass.

 

[Xue Sheng99]

The problem with that is , he is losing power in the kick because the force vectors are all wrong.
His upper body is going one way , and his lower body going in another.
In the Wing Chun version , Bong Gerk , the whole body is pivoted in the same direction as one unit utilising the whole body mass.

Actually, in Xingyiquan that increases power to the palm strike, can't speak for JKD

 

[mook jong man]

Actually, in Xingyiquan that increases power to the palm strike, can't speak for JKD

By that do you mean because the shoulders are held square that the right palm is already loaded and ready to strike?
I can see the logic in that , but it comes at the expense of being able to generate a very powerful kick.
The kick done properly would probably be enough to end the confrontation right then and there , without any follow up strikes needed.

 

[Xue Sheng99]

By that do you mean because the shoulders are held square that the right palm is already loaded and ready to strike?
I can see the logic in that , but it comes at the expense of being able to generate a very powerful kick.
The kick done properly would probably be enough to end the confrontation right then and there , without any follow up strikes needed.

Nope, not how xingyi works and the kick is not meant to be powerful beyond stopping, or stepping on, the leg. And from what I can tell in the JKD application it is a stopping kick...aka obstruction

 

[mook jong man]

Nope, not how xingyi works and the kick is not meant to be powerful beyond stopping, or stepping on, the leg. And from what I can tell in the JKD application it is a stopping kick...aka obstruction

To borrow a Wing Chun term , that would be called a wasted movement.
We have a similar technique to stop someone advancing , in Wing Chun we call it a low heel kick , you get one of those in the knee cap or shin, and you don't advance anymore , you just drop , because that kick is done with full power.

If we used the upper body as an an analogy , would you make a fist and hold your arm out stretched and wait for the attacker to run into it and call that an "arm obstruction"?

No you wouldn't , you would time it so as the person came into range you would throw out your punch as hard and as fast as you could.
In that way you are increasing the damage by adding the force of your own powerful strike to the force of that generated by the attackers own forward momentum.

If that is the way they do things , then that is the way they do it , but to a Wing Chun person it does seem a bit illogical.

 

[Xue Sheng99]

To borrow a Wing Chun term , that would be called a wasted movement.
We have a similar technique to stop someone advancing , in Wing Chun we call it a low heel kick , you get one of those in the knee cap or shin, and you don't advance anymore , you just drop , because that kick is done with full power.

If we used the upper body as an an analogy , would you make a fist and hold your arm out stretched and wait for the attacker to run into it and call that an "arm obstruction"?

No you wouldn't , you would time it so as the person came into range you would throw out your punch as hard and as fast as you could.
In that way you are increasing the damage by adding the force of your own powerful strike to the force of that generated by the attackers own forward momentum.

If that is the way they do things , then that is the way they do it , but to a Wing Chun person it does seem a bit illogical.

You do not understand xingyiquan, believe me it is not wasted movement. From a xingyi POV you are wasting power because you are using to much.

Foot hits leg and punch blocked (example right leg right arm used)
could go to wrist grabbed (right hand grab) and pulled into other (ex. left) palm strike or it could be a (ex. right) back fist depending on the power coming at you
and the whole thing use forward momentum there for it is likely if you have put your foot on their leg (closer to knee than hip) the leg is broken
And if the other guy is coming at me all the better, I just hit him harder using his momentum.

The xingyi point of view of what your describing is using to much muscular strength thereby wasting power unnecessarily.

I cannot speak for JKD or what they are doing

 

[mook jong man]

You do not understand xingyiquan, believe me it is not wasted movement. From a xingyi POV you are wasting power because you are using to much.

Foot hits leg and punch blocked (example right leg right arm used)
could go to wrist grabbed (right hand grab) and pulled into other (ex. left) palm strike or it could be a (ex. right) back fist depending on the power coming at you
and the whole thing use forward momentum there for it is likely if you have put your foot on their leg (closer to knee than hip) the leg is broken
And if the other guy is coming at me all the better, I just hit him harder using his momentum.

The xingyi point of view of what your describing is using to much muscular strength thereby wasting power unnecessarily.

I cannot speak for JKD or what they are doing

Well you are correct of course , I do not understand Xingyiquan.
But the muscular force needed to perform a low heel kick in Wing Chun is minimal at best , it goes directly from the floor straight to the target namely the knee/ shin region.
There are no movements based on brute strength at least in my lineage of Wing Chun.

It is a very fast relaxed movement , most of the force is derived from the stance itself and the angle of the leg at point of impact.
We tend to go for the knee/shin area rather than the upper thigh , because the knee/shin area is usually the closest target presented by the opponent.
This ties in directly to our principles on economy of movement and directness.
I also would have thought that with the speed some people can close in , you might have a hard job getting your kick up in time to his upper thigh.
I trained with a young Chinese guy who could move in very quick , and most of the time I was struggling just to get my heel to his knee in time to stop him coming in.

 

[Xue Sheng99]

Well you are correct of course , I do not understand Xingyiquan.
But the muscular force needed to perform a low heel kick in Wing Chun is minimal at best , it goes directly from the floor straight to the target namely the knee/ shin region.
There are no movements based on brute strength at least in my lineage of Wing Chun.

It is a very fast relaxed movement , most of the force is derived from the stance itself and the angle of the leg at point of impact.
We tend to go for the knee/shin area rather than the upper thigh , because the knee/shin area is usually the closest target presented by the opponent.
This ties in directly to our principles on economy of movement and directness.
I also would have thought that with the speed some people can close in , you might have a hard job getting your kick up in time to his upper thigh.
I trained with a young Chinese guy who could move in very quick , and most of the time I was struggling just to get my heel to his knee in time to stop him coming in.

Different styles different approaches that is all in the case of Wing Chun and Xingyi I am not saying one is better or worse than the other, just different. As for JKD I really can't say, I did not train it long enough to discuss it much. I just have seen multiple similarities to Xingyiquan in JKD. And I know an older (my age) Chinese guy that can kick a person in the jaw faster than most can throw a straight punch, and his strikes are damn quick too.....try sparing with him sometime.

 

[drop bear105]

That style of attack is a common multi style idea. There is a Thai version which I use called a picking kick. Which I throw toes outside trying to land the heel. Hard or soft depends on what I am doing and how much time I have to get that leg up.

Savate has a side kick version. And the Gracie's were a bit mad keen for that style of entry when they originally faces strikers.

 

[simplicity]

In Jeet Kune Do, a leg obstruction is where the person is coming to you... You are putting up a wall so they can run into it... If they are kick you, the harder they kick the worst it will feel on them... The stop - kick you are coming to them...

 

[Thunder Foot]

The technique is taken from Wing Chun, and is exactly as Mook explained. JKD borrows the WC principle of simultaneous attack and defense. This version does neither. It doesn't effectively stop someone who would be coming full speed nor does damage to the opponent. This demo shows a lack of understanding of the practicality of the tech. I mean let's be real, if an attacker has a knife and is charging we would give all we can to that leg rather than give em a "love tap" and proceed to be sliced. In real fighting which is what Bruce looked to address, we don't have the luxury to discern whether someone is armed with gun, knife, or empty hand.... we just go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

I prefer to kick on the "knee joint" instead. When you kick on the upper leg, you may give your opponent a free "single leg".

 

[drop bear105]

I prefer to kick on the "knee joint" instead. When you kick on the upper leg, you may give your opponent a free "single leg".

Yeah but if you are sparring you are not going to make any friends kicking at peoples knee all the time. This is why I avoid front kicking g people in the face.

 

[mook jong man]

Yeah but if you are sparring you are not going to make any friends kicking at peoples knee all the time. This is why I avoid front kicking g people in the face.

We use two pairs of shin pads on each leg , and a pair of those tough plastic knee pads that tilers use over the shin pads.
I won't lie , you can still feel it , and your knee cartilage will be making funny clicking noises for a few days afterwards.
But it is the only way we can realistically practice what is one of our main attacks.

 

[drop bear105]

We use two pairs of shin pads on each leg , and a pair of those tough plastic knee pads that tilers use over the shin pads.
I won't lie , you can still feel it , and your knee cartilage will be making funny clicking noises for a few days afterwards.
But it is the only way we can realistically practice what is one of our main attacks.

You can't just kick them in the thigh? And not risk a knee injury in training. I looked at the vid and there it is the kicker doing the takedown. The other guys leg is on the floor.

Or just have good takedown defence and kick however you want.

 

[drop bear105]

The leg intercept by master wong who I love because I think he is unhinged.

There is swearing in the vid. But for those who can deal with that he is worth a look.

He does do that stomp style kick that I prefer.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=70Hq2LPyRJM

 

[mook jong man]

You can't just kick them in the thigh? And not risk a knee injury in training. I looked at the vid and there it is the kicker doing the takedown. The other guys leg is on the floor.

Or just have good takedown defence and kick however you want.

No we always train to target the correct area , the knee or shin.
Taking full power kicks in the knee cap or shin even with pads on is not something you want to be doing all the time.
But every now and again it is ok.
If we are not padded up we will still throw the kick at full speed , but we will stop about an inch before contact.

 

[drop bear105]

No we always train to target the correct area , the knee or shin.
Taking full power kicks in the knee cap or shin even with pads on is not something you want to be doing all the time.
But every now and again it is ok.
If we are not padded up we will still throw the kick at full speed , but we will stop about an inch before contact.

See that seems kind of strange. OK you pad up get your target right. But approximating the kick say during sparring should be fine.it is still going to stop the leg and do the job it is supposed to do. Where a kick to nothing would not achieve that and you get unrealistic feedback.

Same way I could front kick people in the face. But I drop the kick because eating a heel with you nose sucks more than a person should have to put up with.

Unless he starts kicking me in the knee or something.

Even with that video of master Wong he is not chopping guys knees out.