Jacob competing at USKA Nationals

[Gerry Seymour]

Is muscle memory in that equation somewhere?

The term "muscle memory" is a misnomer (though a good descriptor for how we experience it). As I recall, it largely involves reinforced pathways (multiple connections for the same path), and myelination (insulative sheathing for the neuron). The more you use a pathway, the more connections the neurons make, and the more myelin is added. Well-traveled pathways become more efficient and easier to use.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Parts of it can grow. I don’t think it’s a large amount though. The brain doesn’t have much room to grow inside the skull after all. And I’m not sure if every part is capable of growing (after adulthood) or only select parts are. The study that article referenced only talked about the hippocampus growing (if that was the part that grew).

For this stuff it’s most likely a combination of “re-wiring,” being more efficient, and a seemingly negligible amount of actual growth. That’s my guess anyway.

Most areas can have some growth. There juvenile brain actually has MANY more connections than the adult brain. There's a "pruning" that happens - twice I think - to remove large amounts of connections. This is why kids learn so differently from adults - their brain is quite literally wired for learning. But even as our brains age, unused areas get pruned, and new connections (including reinforced connections) can be made. The growth is more a matter of density of connections than size, in many cases.

 

[JR 137]

Is muscle memory in that equation somewhere?

“Muscle memory” is in the cerebellum, that ball-like part on the back and bottom of the brain. New stuff you learn occurs somewhere in the cerebrum. Repeat it often enough and it gets moved to the cerebellum. This is why you have to consciously think about some stuff and can do other things subconsciously. Ever think about walking while you walk? You just go. That’s the cerebellum. Consciously think about it, and you’re using the cerebrum. And you’ll probably trip yourself up a bit if you consciously think about walking because the two parts of your brain are going against each other.

If I asked you which arm swings forward as your right leg steps forward, you most likely have to think about it, then you’ll probably end up walking several steps and second guess your answer. Walking will feel awkward.

I do this with my 9th grade biology students. It’s hilarious watching them contemplating and thinking about how they actually walk while they’re walking. My anatomy & physiology professor did it to us, and that’s where I got it from. We’d be walking around the room and several people could be heard saying “wait, do I actually walk like this, or do I walk like this?” Walking is so highly complex that if we consciously think about what everything’s doing, we’d fall on our faces quite often.

That muscle memory of throwing a punch or kick is basically the same thing. How far back does your punching hand go? Where does it go (above your shoulder, your hip, etc.)?When does it turn over? How much does it turn over? How far out is your elbow? Which knuckles are landing first? How does it redirect itself and hit a target? How does it track that target and still hit it when it moved a bit while the punch was on its way? What is the rest of your body doing while all of this is going on? Think about all of that stuff consciously, and you’re f’ed.

While you’re learning all the fine details of a punch, you’re re-wiring and making more neural pathways.

 

[CB Jones]

“Muscle memory” is in the cerebellum, that ball-like part on the back and bottom of the brain. New stuff you learn occurs somewhere in the cerebrum. Repeat it often enough and it gets moved to the cerebellum. This is why you have to consciously think about some stuff and can do other things subconsciously. Ever think about walking while you walk? You just go. That’s the cerebellum. Consciously think about it, and you’re using the cerebrum. And you’ll probably trip yourself up a bit if you consciously think about walking because the two parts of your brain are going against each other.

If I asked you which arm swings forward as your right leg steps forward, you most likely have to think about it, then you’ll probably end up walking several steps and second guess your answer. Walking will feel awkward.

I do this with my 9th grade biology students. It’s hilarious watching them contemplating and thinking about how they actually walk while they’re walking. My anatomy & physiology professor did it to us, and that’s where I got it from. We’d be walking around the room and several people could be heard saying “wait, do I actually walk like this, or do I walk like this?” Walking is so highly complex that if we consciously think about what everything’s doing, we’d fall on our faces quite often.

That muscle memory of throwing a punch or kick is basically the same thing. How far back does your punching hand go? Where does it go (above your shoulder, your hip, etc.)?When does it turn over? How much does it turn over? How far out is your elbow? Which knuckles are landing first? How does it redirect itself and hit a target? How does it track that target and still hit it when it moved a bit while the punch was on its way? What is the rest of your body doing while all of this is going on? Think about all of that stuff consciously, and you’re f’ed.

While you’re learning all the fine details of a punch, you’re re-wiring and making more neural pathways.

I see this with coaching baseball.

So many things going on mechanically with your swing or throw that when you start trying to teach someone or fix something you can cause other problems.

They start trying to think about one component of the mechanics and mess up a couple other components

 

[JR 137]

I see this with coaching baseball.

So many things going on mechanically with your swing or throw that when you start trying to teach someone or fix something you can cause other problems.

They start trying to think about one component of the mechanics and mess up a couple other components

Exactly. When they’re thinking about it, they’re using the wrong part of the brain. The cerebrum and cerebellum are at odds with each other. The cerebellum is doing what it’s been programmed to do, and the cerebrum is trying to stop it. That’s why we struggle a bit, and more so struggle with relearning a new motor pattern.

This is why I don’t practice a new kata independently until I have it completely memorized. I made that mistake once that really sticks out. I learned it in class but not to the point of memorizing it. I practiced it on my own probably 200 times. And yeah, I practiced the same mistake every time too. It probably took my double that time to completely fix the mistake. Haven’t done that one again.

 

[dvcochran]

The term "muscle memory" is a misnomer (though a good descriptor for how we experience it). As I recall, it largely involves reinforced pathways (multiple connections for the same path), and myelination (insulative sheathing for the neuron). The more you use a pathway, the more connections the neurons make, and the more myelin is added. Well-traveled pathways become more efficient and easier to use.

So the body literally increases the protective sheath around nerves? Very cool.

 

[JR 137]

So the body literally increases the protective sheath around nerves? Very cool.

Myelin sheath isn’t really a protective structure. As crazy as it sounds it’s not really an insulator either. It speeds up the impulse by having the impulse go on the outside of the sheath. The impulse jumps from node to node. The node of ranvier is the spot in between the bead looking Schwann cells. You’d think it would take longer to travel outside and trace that up and down path, but it doesn’t. I don’t remember why and how, it just remember it does.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

“Muscle memory” is in the cerebellum, that ball-like part on the back and bottom of the brain. New stuff you learn occurs somewhere in the cerebrum. Repeat it often enough and it gets moved to the cerebellum. This is why you have to consciously think about some stuff and can do other things subconsciously. Ever think about walking while you walk? You just go. That’s the cerebellum. Consciously think about it, and you’re using the cerebrum. And you’ll probably trip yourself up a bit if you consciously think about walking because the two parts of your brain are going against each other.

If I asked you which arm swings forward as your right leg steps forward, you most likely have to think about it, then you’ll probably end up walking several steps and second guess your answer. Walking will feel awkward.

I do this with my 9th grade biology students. It’s hilarious watching them contemplating and thinking about how they actually walk while they’re walking. My anatomy & physiology professor did it to us, and that’s where I got it from. We’d be walking around the room and several people could be heard saying “wait, do I actually walk like this, or do I walk like this?” Walking is so highly complex that if we consciously think about what everything’s doing, we’d fall on our faces quite often.

That muscle memory of throwing a punch or kick is basically the same thing. How far back does your punching hand go? Where does it go (above your shoulder, your hip, etc.)?When does it turn over? How much does it turn over? How far out is your elbow? Which knuckles are landing first? How does it redirect itself and hit a target? How does it track that target and still hit it when it moved a bit while the punch was on its way? What is the rest of your body doing while all of this is going on? Think about all of that stuff consciously, and you’re f’ed.

While you’re learning all the fine details of a punch, you’re re-wiring and making more neural pathways.

The book Thinking Fast and Slow does a decent job of explaining system 1 and system 2 thinking. One (I keep forgetting which) is the conscious thought, which is slow. The other is the systematized version of that conscious thought, and is faster, more automatic, and largely unconscious. Like driving home without really thinking about the route...sometimes even when you planned to be somewhere else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see this with coaching baseball.

So many things going on mechanically with your swing or throw that when you start trying to teach someone or fix something you can cause other problems.

They start trying to think about one component of the mechanics and mess up a couple other components

So if we go back to the idea of hitting pitches from a machine, that's working the muscle memory quite nicely. Then you get an actual pitcher, and the muscle memory works fine, but the the pattern recognition isn't set up to recognize those pitches - some of which recognition is probably based on arm and eye movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Myelin sheath isn’t really a protective structure. As crazy as it sounds it’s not really an insulator either. It speeds up the impulse by having the impulse go on the outside of the sheath. The impulse jumps from node to node. The node of ranvier is the spot in between the bead looking Schwann cells. You’d think it would take longer to travel outside and trace that up and down path, but it doesn’t. I don’t remember why and how, it just remember it does.
View attachment 22195

Yeah, "insulation" is a shorthand explanation that makes sense, but is a bit backwards of the actual function. Good explanation, JR.