Is the Libertarian Dream possible? Can it work for America? Can it work anywhere? Can it work in a global society? How much freedom do you think that people should have?
Is the Libertarian Dream possible?
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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Sadly, no, I don't think it can work here in the US. Libertarianism is very much about personal responsibility and dealing with the consequences of your own actions. America is so deeply entrenched in a complete lack of personal responsibility, not to mention the trial lawyers money maker the frivolous law suit and the idea that the government is responsible for taking care of the individual (as opposed to the community) from cradle to grave that it isn't going to happen.
OP
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- #4
The massified society we now live in is not possible unless we beleive that humanity is in need of management. This beleif has to come from somewhere? Is the bulk of humanity human dross in need of moulding by our betters or are people really capable of being individuals, making their own decisions, and providing for themselves?
Is there real, tangible value in labor that we can seek for ourselves, rather then provide as a service to our handlers?
Is there real, tangible value in labor that we can seek for ourselves, rather then provide as a service to our handlers?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
What can't a person be trusted with freedom?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #6
Why can't this change?
Because humans, as a general rule, are lazy. It's far easier to get what you want by taking it from others than by earning or creating it for yourself. Take slavery for example. It's a practice as old as civilization because the human species doesn't want to work any harder than absolutely needed to accomplish a task. So, you capture/buy other humans to do the work for you. I'm all for the libertarian dream I just don't think that human nature (on the scale that's needed to make it work) will allow it to happen.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
I can speak with authority regarding myself on this matter. When I really want something, I would say that I am far from lazy. I will work as hard as anyone else in order to get it. Are most people different?
Yes, unfortunatly, most folks are different. The thing you must remember here is that you're preaching to the choir, I think. Those folks that train in the martial arts are, generally, self starters who will put forth a huge amount of effort for what could be deemed a small return on that investment. I, too, will work as hard as my body will allow (and then some) to get what I want/need. The truth is, though, that a huge number of people taking advantage of the welfare state in this country don't NEED it. It's just so much easier to take the hand out.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #10
I've often wondered about laziness and motivation and what makes people tick in regards to both. I'm a teacher in a low income high school, so I see lots of kids that most people would call "lazy" but that label doesn't really seem to fit. All of my students are surprisingly motivated when they want to be. For example, I see lots of kids working their butts off to buy ****** cars and own a little bit of the freedom associated with that. Yet, put them in school and stick a book in front of them and they'll resist until the cows come home.
All of this leads me to beleive that if a person WANTS to do something, then they'll do it. If they have no choice (no freedom) and they are forced to do something, then any sort of motivation drops off. I'm not so different then that, I think. And I bet most people aren't too terribly different.
With that being said, I have to wonder if having more freedom to choose what you want to do, having more freedom to learn what you want to learn, having more freedom to be who you want to be would be a good thing?
I think it would really surprise people just how fully those things I wrote above are controlled...
All of this leads me to beleive that if a person WANTS to do something, then they'll do it. If they have no choice (no freedom) and they are forced to do something, then any sort of motivation drops off. I'm not so different then that, I think. And I bet most people aren't too terribly different.
With that being said, I have to wonder if having more freedom to choose what you want to do, having more freedom to learn what you want to learn, having more freedom to be who you want to be would be a good thing?
I think it would really surprise people just how fully those things I wrote above are controlled...
Libertarianism seems to be purely driven by self interest rather than notions of freedom/liberty. I can't see unfettered self-interest improving the world, or any society within it.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
Unfettered self-interest is evil...or it leads to evil. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," is not libertarianism, at least not according to what I posted in the OP. Closer to the mark is, "if it harm none, do what thou wilt."
Big difference. I think an entire society could be based off of that principle alone.
That's pretty much the definition that I've figured out along the way. Do what you wanna do so long as it doesn't harm anyone else and be prepared to deal with the consequences of your own actions without looking for someone else to bail your dumb *** out.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
A country can say it is Communistic, but I have yet to see one were the government itself doesn't prove otherwise.
That's Don's point, I think. It's a wonderful, Utopian system in theory but just doesn't work in the real world.
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Nothing I can add that Winston Churchill didn't already say well before my birth:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others".
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Yah, but my point is that no country has ever really tried. From there origins, they did somthing that basicly proves that the government itself has no real intrest in Communism. Like those Dictorial States that say they're Democratic.
Certain elements of the Libertarians are appealing. Never happen though. Passing things through congress and getting a presidential signature for absolutely groundbreaking changes is unlikely to happen.
Freedom is a wonderful thing. However, the more you give people, the more you will find people happy to abuse that freedom.
You can trust a person, but you sure can't trust people. I think I heard something like that in Men In Black
Freedom is a wonderful thing. However, the more you give people, the more you will find people happy to abuse that freedom.
You can trust a person, but you sure can't trust people. I think I heard something like that in Men In Black
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
That sounds like something a dictator might say.
Libertarianism in this country could only occur under some dramatic, negative consequences.
An libertarianism is not a utopian theory. Even professed libertarians (such as myself) would not believe that there would never be any negative consequences to peoples actions. Quite the contrary in fact. The only thing people would be held accountable is for their own actions.
One place that I found that has a good idea of a working libertarian style government is here:
http://www.joelskousen.com/Philosophy/philosophy.html
It has six subsections to read, but it is very enlightening in my view.
An libertarianism is not a utopian theory. Even professed libertarians (such as myself) would not believe that there would never be any negative consequences to peoples actions. Quite the contrary in fact. The only thing people would be held accountable is for their own actions.
One place that I found that has a good idea of a working libertarian style government is here:
http://www.joelskousen.com/Philosophy/philosophy.html
It has six subsections to read, but it is very enlightening in my view.
