Is knowing one style enough?

[kenpo tiger]

An on-going discussion at my dojo involves "our past." Many of us have trained some in other martial arts than kenpo. The men who have trained in kung fu seem to have more of an advantage in that kenpo includes a lot of kung fu-based concepts and movement. Some of them have trained in either Tracey or the "old" (read: original) Parker system and thus have an advantage that way. I have a little of a hybrid karate style which includes shotokan/aikido/jujitsu as well as some taekwondo. I find that I use all of my training at some time or another. One of the most important aspects that I have carried with me is the work ethic instilled by one instructor and the proper focus and attitude instilled by another: it's not about the belt.

I guess the real question here is: how much is enough? How much of an art do you need to have to understand its basics?
And, is it worthwhile to train up to Intermediate or Advanced rank and then move on if you find the art isn't a good fit?

[To explain 'a good fit': you are enjoying your training (that's why we all keep going back, isn't it?), you like and work well with the other people in the dojo/dojang, and you like your instructor(s) and have a good working relationship with him/her/them.]

 

[MJS]

This discussion has been brought up many times, but I still like it!!

I guess its all up to the person. Some people think that they are getting everything they need from one style and others feel like crosstraining to supplement their training. Either way you look at it, both are fine. Speaking for myself, I crosstrain in a few other arts in addition to Kenpo. Kenpo is a great art that covers many different things, but for me, I wanted to go that step further and CT in a few other arts.

To answer your question.

How much is enough?? Well, considering that there is so much out there, why not take a taste from everything on the menu!!

How much do you need to understand the basics? Look at it like this. Even if you took one thing from another art, trained it like crazy, and added it to what you're already doing, just think how much better you just became!!

Is it worthwhile to train to advanced rank?? Of course. I CT in Arnis and am close to black belt, and have no intention of stopping. I do BJJ on and off when I can, and while I'm no black belt, I can hold my own on the ground. Again, it all depends on the person. Whatever you want to get out of it.

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

is it worthwhile to train up to Intermediate or Advanced rank and then move on if you find the art isn't a good fit?

[To explain 'a good fit': you are enjoying your training (that's why we all keep going back, isn't it?), you like and work well with the other people in the dojo/dojang, and you like your instructor(s) and have a good working relationship with him/her/them.]

Personally, if it wasn't a "good fit", I wouldn't waste my time. Although, if you really love the art, but dislike the dojo, and have no other choice of dojo, that's a tough situation. Fortunately, I need not concern myself with these issues. I'm thankful for that.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Many thanks to you both. I realize that sometimes it can be redundant discussing the same issues under different guises, but I feel it's important to get feedback from "older" brothers and sisters. (n.b.: While some people disagree with the whole belt system, this is what it's about - asking someone who knows to share their knowledge. True?)As to leaving a dojo that is not a comfortable fit: if you do not know about anything else, which I didn't at the time, it is very very difficult. Also, it was still very much about the belt for me. I've learned a lot since then.:asian:

 

[MA-Caver]

I've spent time studying different arts over the years. A year or two in this and a year in that and a few months here and a couple weeks there. For myself I found it to be sufficent because of my life's (personal) circumstances. I've learned enough to adequately defend myself in various situations. Right now I'm at a point where I want to settle with one art and still in the process of making a satisfactory decision. But my CT has helped me where it was needed.
Not all situations call for this move or that one. You just cannot predict what your opponent knows or will do. Having that bit of variety helps (IMO).
If you have a base style then stick with that...but talk with your instructor and see what they say about CT. Think also what it is you want to learn and why. Ask yourself will this be beneficial to me or is it just something cool to learn?
Up to you of course... with all things, it's up to you.
:asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

Hi,
I was looking back, in my life to remember if I had moved on to another art as even a blue belt, I would have left then with just a few beginner skills. Even then – 2yrs worth, not alot had developed into what could be considered as being terribly skilled or mastery. By the time I got to BB, I had gained so much! Besides the fitness level and strength, the familiarity with the basic kicks and advanced kicks, I had worked at a much higher level of awareness in TKD. So much is taught at each belt and as I progressed, I learned more about myself and what it takes to become BB.

Do I want to learn other arts? Do I want to taste each style? Might be fun to learn more about them. But if I had two years into a style, for example, I would be still "learning" in TKD and I would need all my attention to get to any proficiency which is usually BB (my kicks were alot weaker at blue belt). I guess, I would not want to be just mediocre in many arts (not that I'm saying you are-because I don't know them or you). I would want to push the art as far as I could go to my utmost ability - not just learn the basics of what I perceive as somewhat doing the art well. A MASTER in TKD is actually 4th Dan - that level has a mastery of the art and can have his own school. Before that we are still learning. Even masters can still learn and become better.

Find the one style and school that is a fit, and go for it. Put your ALL into it. It wlll probably take a few years to accomplish but yes the level of training is very much worth it. I'm on my eighth continuous year of TKD and I feel I have much to learn and enjoy yet, if my knees hold up. And, in dedicating myself fully to it, getting deep into one art, it has made the journey so much fuller and richer from the experience.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Think also what it is you want to learn and why. Ask yourself will this be beneficial to me or is it just something cool to learn?
Up to you of course... with all things, it's up to you.
:asian:

Thank you.

 

[kenpo tiger]

I'm on my eighth continuous year of TKD and I feel I have much to learn and enjoy yet, if my knees hold up.
Tigerwoman,
I left my tkd school at high brown belt. I enjoyed the art, but felt I wasn't getting enough from my instructor. My kicks serve me well in kenpo, but if you were to ask me if I was as proficient doing nadabon now, I'd have to say no. As it is, the knee thing will always be with me. They click each and every time I do a wide or closed kneel! Such is age, but the alternative is worse.

I do not profess to be expert. In fact, I still have a year or two to black belt.
I watch my niece, who is a third dan in tkd and a national sparring champion in her federation at age 16. I never had her flexibility nor would I even want to compete against her in kata or sparring. My focus is: at my age - 51 - it's about the journey, not the belt - and it works for me. Why? Because I sampled other styles, I think I have found the one I'm suited to.

 

[TigerWoman]

My instructor refuses to teach me right now, personally. I have trained myself to get to 2nd dan. I have one break to do. He would rather than I leave. My knees were creaky, noisy when I started eight years ago. I haven't had that noise for a long time. I have taken glucosamine sulfate, and MSM, for six years, keeps it lubricated enough to help with the pain and get through it. But now I take Advil before and after training. My knee cartilage is gone, I have worn a divot in the top of the tibia on one side. I have one break left to accomplish to get to 2nd dan - a double jump combination. But I refuse to let him take that from me. And I love the discipline - the art of TKD. I come with a good attitude and learn whatever I can, do whatever I can. Right now, at 54, I would much prefer to be on the floor, not jumping. My instructor and I seem to "grate" when he orders jumping, most everyday. So if Kenpo will work for you in the long run, go for it and may God bless your journey. I would like an kindler, gentler workout too!

PS. I achieved flexibility - the hard way. I read everything and worked at it from not much to start with - it can be done. I feel like I can now compete against my state champion/form daughter then 17. But a 54 yr. old does not look prettier. Flexibility may be in the genes, however.
:uhyeah:

 

[KungFuWarrior]

I guess the real question here is: how much is enough? How much of an art do you need to have to understand its basics?
And, is it worthwhile to train up to Intermediate or Advanced rank and then move on if you find the art isn't a good fit?

To answer the first question a person can understand the basics of a martial art in a few months but it takes years to master them. Theres an old Chinese tale about a monk the studied only one move the flank step and punch until he mastered it and could perform it perfectly. The story goes on to tell that the monk was undefeated in combat because he could perform the move so fast and flawlessly that no one could beat him. As far as you moving on to other arts if you find that an art isn't a good fit by all means move on. You must keep in mind that if an art doesn't fit you it will probably sooner or later interfer with you MA training because you may lose interest or maybe the art doesn't fit your fighting style or body. Hope this helps in your descisions.

 

[kenpo tiger]

My instructor refuses to teach me right now, personally. I have trained myself to get to 2nd dan. I have one break to do. He would rather than I leave. My knees were creaky, noisy when I started eight years ago. I haven't had that noise for a long time. I have taken glucosamine sulfate, and MSM, for six years, keeps it lubricated enough to help with the pain and get through it. But now I take Advil before and after training. My knee cartilage is gone, I have worn a divot in the top of the tibia on one side. I have one break left to accomplish to get to 2nd dan - a double jump combination. But I refuse to let him take that from me. And I love the discipline - the art of TKD. I come with a good attitude and learn whatever I can, do whatever I can. Right now, at 54, I would much prefer to be on the floor, not jumping. My instructor and I seem to "grate" when he orders jumping, most everyday. So if Kenpo will work for you in the long run, go for it and may God bless your journey. I would like an kindler, gentler workout too!

PS. I achieved flexibility - the hard way. I read everything and worked at it from not much to start with - it can be done. I feel like I can now compete against my state champion/form daughter then 17. But a 54 yr. old does not look prettier. Flexibility may be in the genes, however.
:uhyeah:

Thank you for your insights and good wishes. It's valuable to hear such encouraging things from someone my age!

Does he refuse to teach you because it's part of the training? I hope not.

Ah, I miss board breaking. We do not do it at my dojo.

As for your acquiring flexibility, good for you!! It does take hard work and a lot of stretching which, when you haven't done it for a while, leaves you. I find that after a particularly hard workout some nights I am able to get my roundhouse up to head height again. What tkd stylists take for granted - the ability to kick high as well as speedy multiple kicks without touching down - other martial artists are in awe of.

Hang in there, fellow tiger. And I'm glad we can talk with one another. Keep me posted about your double break. I'm there with you in spirit.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Let Your Mind Guide You,
Your Spirit Drive You,
And Your Body Protect You. Thank you KungFu Warrior. :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

My feeling are that any decent style should incorporate all the same things, weapons, self defense, some ground fighting, forms well to me I like them but they could be a option.

Bruce Lee said something to the effect before he started training in martial arts he thought a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick, then he started training, he learned that a punch wasnt just a punch and a kick wasnt just a kick, then he completed his training and now a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.
That being said most arts have the same puches ad kicks. Its the philosophy behind them.
Kempo for example has very hard fast movements which can be mistaken for slapping. But after studing a Japanese system and then taking kempo Ive come to realize that the blocks are virtually the same, the punches are also, what makes it different is the stances and the angles.
Kempo also has weapon techniques using the escrima sticks built nto their self defense techniques and forms.
So with that being said the only difference in systems is the philosophy.

Now there are others such as jujitsu with its ground fighting . I feel a stand up fight should learn a little ground fight in case they end up on the ground. Much like a ground fighter should rake some stand up fighting techniques. But as a stand up fighter Im starting to develope some techniques to reco9ngnize and prevent/counter ground fighters trying to put me on the ground.

I do babble sometimes huh??

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Bruce Lee said something to the effect before he started training in martial arts he thought a punch was a punch and a kick was a kick, then he started training, he learned that a punch wasnt just a punch and a kick wasnt just a kick, then he completed his training and now a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick.

I remember reading that and I love it!!! He needed to experience it..I guess you can't just arrive at it...you need to take the ride for yourself first!

 

[loki09789]

When you say enough, what are you referring to with that word? If you mean is it enough to master your chosen/current system? Yes, work hard, work smart and be consistent and you will improve. If you mean is it enough for real world self defense? I would say no. No matter how realistic, gritty and encompassing a school/system/art might try and be, real fights are about dealing with variables changing quickly in a potentially deadly way. You can't develop that adaptiveness if you only train in one systematic way. After a while, you can see through the 'mysteries' and the challenges laid before you because you can recognized the patterns of the style.

Stay with a core system that works for you but shake it up by trying/training new stuff. Being the beginner again stimulates/simulates the authentic experience/stress that you have to deal with in real stuff. Take a driving course, horse back riding, gun safety course, civil police programs, .... sort of the "McGuyver" philosophy of training.

I don't train in a system to get better at the system as my primary goal. Self defense preparedness is my primary goal so I get better at my system and can explore other arenas for possible skills/experiences that will accomplish my goal. Even trying hockey as a new sport and finding martial arts discipline and training philosophy helping with that... and finding new things from my hockey that helps with MA training...

 

[OC Kid]

mj-hi-ya,
I guess ya can tell Im a geezer huh??? :>)

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Hey KT,

I think you already know my feelings about this especially after leaving one studio and going to another of the same style. I feel what works best for me is to stay in and really learn and study one style. Specialize in one art. Then you may supplement your training with seminars and workshops that interest you such as (coming from a kenpo background) maybe a little chin-na, a little grappling, etc. Then take it back to your art - that you have specialized in, and apply what you have learned to your technique. You may actually see movements in the techniques you didn't notice before that could easily be adapted to include some of the interesting concepts you've picked up in seminars and workshops.

That will only make you a better martial artist. Always a student.

KM :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

When you say enough, what are you referring to with that word? If you mean is it enough to master your chosen/current system? Yes, work hard, work smart and be consistent and you will improve. If you mean is it enough for real world self defense? I would say no. No matter how realistic, gritty and encompassing a school/system/art might try and be, real fights are about dealing with variables changing quickly in a potentially deadly way. You can't develop that adaptiveness if you only train in one systematic way. After a while, you can see through the 'mysteries' and the challenges laid before you because you can recognized the patterns of the style.

Why would you say that for real world self defense, studying one system or art is not enough? I'm not one who completely believes you should only study one art either, but isn't the logic off here? No matter how encompassing/realistic a system is, it’s not enough. But, if you study that system and a bit of another system, that’s enough? Well, what if the founder of said system did exactly that before creating this system? Is it still not enough, you must still study some from another system just to make it enough? So is it then the studying of another system that makes your training enough? This isn't directed just to you Loki, and I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but I'm just curious as to what then makes your training "enough"? Is any training enough? I think enough is a subjective word, what is enough? Does enough mean being able to protect yourself against an attacker? Well that could be a little as a few months in TKD or as much as a lifetime in kung fu. I think to us, "enough" must be defined as what allows us to be effective at protecting ourselves and gives us a sense of security. I think one system can do that very well. I also think that training in several systems can do that very well.



I guess my main disagreement with this post is: "Why is it that simply because it is one system it is not enough, but two systems are enough"? Not matter how realistic or encompassing; one system isn't enough simply because it is just that...one system?



7sm

 

[loki09789]

Why would you say that for real world self defense, studying one system or art is not enough? I'm not one who completely believes you should only study one art either, but isn't the logic off here? No matter how encompassing/realistic a system is, it’s not enough. But, if you study that system and a bit of another system, that’s enough? Well, what if the founder of said system did exactly that before creating this system? Is it still not enough, you must still study some from another system just to make it enough? So is it then the studying of another system that makes your training enough? This isn't directed just to you Loki, and I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but I'm just curious as to what then makes your training "enough"? Is any training enough? I think enough is a subjective word, what is enough? Does enough mean being able to protect yourself against an attacker? Well that could be a little as a few months in TKD or as much as a lifetime in kung fu. I think to us, "enough" must be defined as what allows us to be effective at protecting ourselves and gives us a sense of security. I think one system can do that very well. I also think that training in several systems can do that very well.



I guess my main disagreement with this post is: "Why is it that simply because it is one system it is not enough, but two systems are enough"? Not matter how realistic or encompassing; one system isn't enough simply because it is just that...one system?



7sm

What system of martial arts do you know that teaches EVOC/Escape and counter ambush driving? What system do you know that includes tactical firearms training? Or survival medicine? What about your local or national force deadly force laws? What martial art system in use today do you know that teaches any of self assessment or post trauma awareness that helps prepare students for what they will go through after breaking someone up or killing someone?

No one system can cover all the self defense topics that need to be brought together for 'completeness.' At least in the fashion that martial arts is practiced today. Ninjustu, Shaolin (at least according to myths and legends about the old school training), modern LEO, Military training is closer to a 'complete' system as far as I am thinking. Other than that, it is a 'school of X' type of training where you get really good at some part of the whole.

 

[7starmantis]

What system of martial arts do you know that teaches EVOC/Escape and counter ambush driving? What system do you know that includes tactical firearms training? Or survival medicine? What about your local or national force deadly force laws? What martial art system in use today do you know that teaches any of self assessment or post trauma awareness that helps prepare students for what they will go through after breaking someone up or killing someone?

No one system can cover all the self defense topics that need to be brought together for 'completeness.' At least in the fashion that martial arts is practiced today. Ninjustu, Shaolin (at least according to myths and legends about the old school training), modern LEO, Military training is closer to a 'complete' system as far as I am thinking. Other than that, it is a 'school of X' type of training where you get really good at some part of the whole.

Well if what your saying is true, then no system does. In that case learning all system of MA would not be "enough". You would have to learn "other" skills such as emergency medicine and survival techniques. But we are talking about martial arts and so in that case only those things that can apply to martial arts. If your saying no system of MA teaches EVOC/Escape and counter ambush driving, then learning all the systems of MA will not be "enough". If your saying that you have trained in those things then when you teach someone these things is what you teach them enough? Because wouldn't that really be "one system"? I guess we could get caught in arguing semantics but in relevance to martial arts skills, I personally think you can get all you need to know about martial arts from one system. After that you would need to search outside of martial arts for these "other" skills you mentioned. I agree that these skills are useful for self defense in some situations, but in the context of martial arts you are only going to learn a set amount anyway, right?



7sm