Is "Jo" staff just for aikido?

[Redbad]

Hello, I'm a self taught martial artist. I have used instructional videos to learn tonfa
My sparring partner is trained in tanto-jutsu.

I want to learn the Jo to help 1. get a better exercise than I currently get with tonfa and 2. Learn a new weapon that may actually be useful to me in the future.
I also want to help keep my opponent on his toes with his tanto-jutsu, because he can never get the correct strikes while I am using my tonfa.

Is the Jo just for aikido? Or can it be learned by its self?
Let me know
Thanks a lot guys
Austin

 

[Blindside]

You want to learn functional short staff work?

Staff
and if you want some exercise for this:

 

[Blindside]

Short staff is used in about every martial culture there is, the one I referred you to is from the Philippines.

 

[Mephisto]

If you want to learn a weapon find an instructor, otherwise you're just larping. I've met some self taught weapons guys before and they severely overestimated their skill. "Self taught martial artist" only exists in old kung fu movies and the minds of martial arts fanboys who aren't motivated enough to go out and train. Lonely dog in the video above originally learned from Dog Bros. video but he eventually met up with the instructors and continued to grow. He started with Dog Bros material and followed it and trained with Dog Bros. instructors and finally became a Dog Brother. He is the exception to the rule of self taught martial artists and he's an athletic beast. The self taught guys i've run across are not. If you must learn by video find a curriculum on video study the video and follow up with the creators of the video regularly for technique adjustment. Just like you can't become a pro football player by watching a game and reading strategy books you can't become a good martial artist without qualified instruction.

 

[Blindside]

I'll actually take Mephisto's post one step further, in my experience every self-taught guy that I have run into has just plain sucked and it was always worse if the self-taught style had anything to do with a sword.

I'll be the first to admit that I used videos as a main training tool when I first got into FMA, and at that point I had about 9 years of martial arts under my belt, but it didn't really click until I hooked up with an instructor.

 

[Redbad]

I agree that my tonfa skills aren't very good, and they are something that needs work, and I don't have anyone who is actually trained in koboudo around to help me.

As for the Jo, I can get diagrams etc, and work them out with my partner, who has actually been trained in tanto jutsu, or knife fighting.. He has a pretty solid grasp on stances, and can help with the Jo.
I understand that collaboration from a base is a good way to actually learn something. That is how pankration and HEMA etc have been revived.

 

[Blindside]

Where did he learn tanto-jutsu?

 

[Blindside]

I understand that collaboration from a base is a good way to actually learn something. That is how pankration and HEMA etc have been revived.

Those had to be revived because they were dead, and about 20 years into fairly serious and ongoing and hopefully steadily improving studies into the old martial arts nobody thinks they are experts yet. Most of those early pioneers started with a basis in other martial arts to boot, not just jumping in with no clue how the body moves and trying to recreate what they read in the fechtbuchs.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Austin,

Hello, I'm a self taught martial artist. I have used instructional videos to learn tonfa
My sparring partner is trained in tanto-jutsu.

Okay… personally, I wouldn't go so far as to say you're trained in anything, from the indications found here… "self taught" is, well, not really possible… especially from things such as videos.

Without an instructor, you might be able to swing tonfa around, you might be able to hit something, but that's actually incredibly removed from actually learning the weapon (and even further from learning a method of using the weapon).

I want to learn the Jo to help 1. get a better exercise than I currently get with tonga and

Why do you think Jo would be better exercise?

2. Learn a new weapon that may actually be useful to me in the future.

How so? Are you in the habit of carrying four foot staffs around with you? Most forms of Jodo and Jojutsu deal with sword attacks… are you thinking that you're going to need to understand sword evasion and defence?

I also want to help keep my opponent on his toes with his tanto-jutsu, because he can never get the correct strikes while I am using my tonga.

I'll revisit the "tanto-jutsu" aspect in a bit… but what are the "correct strikes"? And how would using a longer weapon make it easier for them to get them?

Is the Jo just for aikido?

Nope. One of the most famous of Japanese Koryu (old school systems) is Shinto Muso Ryu… an art designed pretty much entirely around the use of the Jo. It also gave rise to modern Jodo (Seitei Jodo) in the early 20th Century. Then you have a number of other ryu-ha (classical schools) that use the Jo… Muhi Muteki Ryu… Jikishinkage Ryu… Kukishinden Ryu… and this is well and truly before we get to other cultures (of course, if it's a Jo, it's a Japanese tradition, as it's a Japanese word), who, as Blindside indicated, have various stick and staff methods from all around the world.

Or can it be learned by its self?

Well, yeah… but not by yourself.

Let me know
Thanks a lot guys
Austin

Sure.

I agree that my tonfa skills aren't very good, and they are something that needs work, and I don't have anyone who is actually trained in koboudo around to help me.

Hmm. Look, I kinda hate to say this, but this is the reality for you.

If you don't have an instructor, you can't learn the skill. That, very simply, is the end of the story. If there's no instructor around for you to learn from, you can't learn it. That might sound harsh, and you might want to protest (common ones are "But who taught the first guys? They had to figure it out for themselves, didn't they?" Uh… no, actually, they didn't. They developed it from real experience, and from learning from others. None of these things developed as an independent invention in the way that question implies), but it's the reality. I really want to learn Takenouchi Ryu… but there's no-one in Australia to teach it. So, I have two choices… move where there is a teacher, or accept that I can't learn it (currently). And, with everything else I do, I have had to accept that I can't learn it right now. That might change later, but for now, I'm kinda stuck with the way the world works. And, honestly, so are you.

What I'm saying is that, bluntly, you're not training, you're not teaching yourself, you're not really developing any skills or understanding… realistically, you're playing. And that's it. And the last thing I ever want to encourage anyone to do is to play with weapons without having any real clue about them… they're weapons, after all… you're just asking for an accident to happen. Put them down until you can get some actual guidance.

As for the Jo, I can get diagrams etc, and work them out with my partner, who has actually been trained in tanto jutsu, or knife fighting..

No, the diagrams won't help you. Working them out with a partner, who also has no clue of the weapon, will not help.

But I'm also going to second Lamont's question here… where did your friend learn tanto? What ryu-ha? From who? The reason I ask is that, well, tantojutsu is simply so uncommon as to be practically impossible to find, especially by itself (removed from other skill sets, such as jujutsu, ken, etc). Additionally, I am aware of exactly no systems that even use the term "tantojutsu"… as tanto isn't specific, but refers to a range of forms of weaponry, more commonly referred to as kogusoku...

He has a pretty solid grasp on stances, and can help with the Jo.

Er… no. If he has no experience in Jo, he has no experience in Jo. While certain aspects can be transferable, it isn't that simple… there needs to be more than just the weapon altered… and, for the transference to be really applicable, you also need a more coherent link between the ri-ai of a more composite and complete systems disparate factions.

In other words, while I get what you think is potentially helpful, it simply isn't.

I understand that collaboration from a base is a good way to actually learn something.

Not really, no. There's a lot more that's needed.

That is how pankration and HEMA etc have been revived.

Well, pankration hasn't been "revived"… there's a modern system using the name, but that's really about the only connection between the ancient form and the modern… so no on that one. As far as HEMA, as mentioned, there's a lot more involved there as well… for one thing, they don't simply go from diagrams… there are a range of additional texts, a lot of study, much interpretation, and a fair bit of experimentation with (typically) very experienced practitioners of other systems to figure out what they think that maybe, possibly, could have been meant by the old folios and texts… hopefully.

But the real important difference is that there is no extant form of old European arts, as depicted and described in texts such as I.33, Fiore, Tallhoffer etc that has survived… the skills you're talking about (Ryukyu Kobudo, Jo) are still in existence… you can find teachers who know what they're doing. You don't have to make it up, and bluntly, pretty much certainly get it completely wrong. You have actual information and skill available to you. If it's simply not in your ability to take advantage of that right now, fine… but don't expect people who do put in what it takes to do this to take what you do seriously.

 

[donald1]

chris also mentioned this, self taught... videos can be good guidance but a video cant tell you corrections or if your doing it right(i'm not going to go far into this but just a friendly suggestion) would be a wise idea to consider an instructor and help you more on the detail. through video there might be specific detail that the person demonstrates but goes unnoticed maybe the instructor slightly lifts his heel off the ground or slightly turns foot outward before switching stances

maybe your partner is trained thats fine some experience may help but an instructor will have more experience and understanding. with an instructor they can teach you and also keep it safe (safer practice when with instructor)

jo staff? is that a head level staff. ive heard of bo staff (not sure if there the same or not) but in goju(atleast the one i practice) we work with 6 ft staff

just curious are you weapon training staff vs tonfa or are these two seperate questions

 

[WaterGal]

jo staff? is that a head level staff. ive heard of bo staff (not sure if there the same or not) but in goju(atleast the one i practice) we work with 6 ft staff

Jo staff is shorter than bo but bigger than an eskrima stick. I think around 4'.

 

[hoshin1600]

Questions like this are so very common here. I feel bad for the people who are so enthusiast and have a desire to learn. Sometimes the answers and replies given are a harsh and rude awakening for the OP. I think it has to be remembered that weapon training is part of a style and or system of an art. Swinging a stick around is no more training in an art form than heating a can of chef boyardee ravioli makes you a real chef.
I am not as hard core as other posters here. I say if you want to swing a jo staff around go for it. Just remember it's not the art form that your doing it's just a can of ravioli. Maybe you could use a baseball bat and think about street self defense for your friends knife training. If you have limitations think about what you can do rather than what you can't do but want to.

 

[Chris Parker]

jo staff? is that a head level staff. ive heard of bo staff (not sure if there the same or not) but in goju(atleast the one i practice) we work with 6 ft staff

"Jo" (杖 - also pronounced "tsue") pretty simply means "stick", whereas "bo" (棒) refers to a "rod", or a wooden length. While they can be fairly interchangeable, the usage is often to differentiate between particular weapons within a syllabus of a system. In the origins of Shinto Muso Ryu, it was to differentiate between the rokushaku bo that Muso Gonnosuke used initially, and his developed shorter, faster weapon that he utilised later.

Jo staff is shorter than bo but bigger than an eskrima stick. I think around 4'.

Actually, the specifics of the term are largely dependant on the ryu-ha in question… within Shinto Muso Ryu, it's just over four foot long, and slightly thinner than a bo… and, while that has become the most common form for the weapon, there are variations. Some systems prefer a customised length (usually to the practitioners armpit, or mid-chest), other systems (such as Muhi Muteki Ryu) focus on a much longer form, almost the same length as others' bo (5-5 1/2 feet). Then again, in some systems (such as Jikishinkage Ryu Naginatajutsu), the Jo is less-formalised, as it represents a broken naginata, rather than a distinctly designed weapon itself. Then you get a few systems that use weapons referred to as "tanjo" (pretty simply: "small stick")… where the form of "jo" is not too dissimilar to the dimensions found in kali/escrima… although typically heavier, made of a hardwood such as oak.

Questions like this are so very common here. I feel bad for the people who are so enthusiast and have a desire to learn. Sometimes the answers and replies given are a harsh and rude awakening for the OP. I think it has to be remembered that weapon training is part of a style and or system of an art. Swinging a stick around is no more training in an art form than heating a can of chef boyardee ravioli makes you a real chef.
I am not as hard core as other posters here. I say if you want to swing a jo staff around go for it. Just remember it's not the art form that your doing it's just a can of ravioli. Maybe you could use a baseball bat and think about street self defense for your friends knife training. If you have limitations think about what you can do rather than what you can't do but want to.

Yep, agreed in all respects here… if all you want to do is have some fun swinging a stick… okay… just be careful. Thing is, don't confuse that in the slightest with actually training in anything at all. It's, as I said, nothing but playing.

 

[geezer]

… if all you want to do is have some fun swinging a stick… okay… just be careful. Thing is, don't confuse that in the slightest with actually training in anything at all. It's, as I said, nothing but playing.

Well said. And if done with resonable care, good physical play is great thing. Especially if, as I suspect, the poster is quite young. At least if gets you outside and off the videogames.

 

[Grenadier]

In what area are you located? You don't have to name a city, just a general location in your state, if you are willing to share that information?

We may be able to point out a competent instructor who can help you learn how to correctly use the weapon in question. Otherwise, by trying to teach yourself, you'll simply end up developing poor mechanics, and doing so without a knowledgeable, watchful eye guiding you.

I'll share a bit of advice with you... It's much more productive to learn things the correct way from the start, and that unlearning bad habits can be frustrating and will take quite a while.

Hello, I'm a self taught martial artist. I have used instructional videos to learn tonfa
My sparring partner is trained in tanto-jutsu.

I want to learn the Jo to help 1. get a better exercise than I currently get with tonfa and 2. Learn a new weapon that may actually be useful to me in the future.

I also want to help keep my opponent on his toes with his tanto-jutsu, because he can never get the correct strikes while I am using my tonfa.

Is the Jo just for aikido? Or can it be learned by its self?
Let me know
Thanks a lot guys
Austin

I think you'll find that the jo is used in a fair number of martial arts systems, some of which are dedicated to weaponry training.

 

[Chris Parker]

I think you'll find that the jo is used in a fair number of martial arts systems, some of which are dedicated to weaponry training.

As we're using the Japanese term, keeping to Japanese arts that use something they refer to as a "jo", almost all are dedicated to weaponry training, almost exclusively in each case… either focused specifically on the jo (or other staff weapons), such as Shinto Muso Ryu and Muhi Muteki Ryu, or as an more minor weapon in a larger syllabus, such as Jikishinkage Ryu Naginata.

The exception would be Aikido itself… but that's not where the exception stops.

As we're being asked about whether or not Aikido is the only place Jo exists, it might be important to look at exactly what Jo in Aikido is… because, when compared with jojutsu itself, that ain't what you get in Aikido.

Jojutsu is the study of the combative usage of the Jo… I think that's pretty much accepted. However, in Aikido, you don't study jojutsu… you study aiki-jo. And aiki-jo is not jojutsu. What it is, really, is an extension and expression of Aikido's principles using a Jo… the aim is to better see the angles and extensions used in Aikido's methodology, by applying a larger amount of leverage via the staff. As a result, if you're really looking to study the use of Jo, while Aikido uses one, it's not the same as an actual jojutsu system. That's not saying anything against Aiki-jo… I'm quite fond of it, myself… but to look for jo combative usage, other systems are going to be what you'd look for.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I didn't read everything Chris wrote, but I would listen to him....
The question was asked already, where are you located? Jodo specifically is not that common in North America, though it can be found, assuming that is the path you wish to travel. At the very least it will teach you distancing, timing, and how to handle jo.
A video for couple of years ago to look at.

 

[Blindside]

This is being shown with sibat (staff) a little longer than the typical jo, but you can see the applicaiton.

 

[Orange Lightning]

I'll actually take Mephisto's post one step further, in my experience every self-taught guy that I have run into has just plain sucked and it was always worse if the self-taught style had anything to do with a sword.

I'll be the first to admit that I used videos as a main training tool when I first got into FMA, and at that point I had about 9 years of martial arts under my belt, but it didn't really click until I hooked up with an instructor.

Well, being self taught mostly just means you're isolated, so you don't know what your skill level is or how efficient your technique are compared to everyone else. Particularly with how your opponent will react to you. Lots of other things to, but that's the biggest problem. Or at least, if they're serious.
It's certainly better than nothing. It's still training, and it makes you better off than you would otherwise be. It still promotes healthiness and can still have that psychological effect of imbuing confidence in your mind that martial arts has.
But it does take a lot longer to figure a lot of things out that wouldn't have taken nearly as much time with some instruction or people to compare to. Both with technique and training.

I do agree that it's particularly bad with sword stuff though.