Is it possible to be good at wing chun...

[guy b.]

...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?

Discuss.

 

[drop bear]

How would you know if you were good?

 

[wckf92]

More importantly, what is your definition of "good"??????????????

 

[geezer]

...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?

Wait a minute, Guy.... knowing you to be an advocate of bare knuckle sparring, I have to ask for clarification here. Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting without any contact sparring at all? Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, just training without protective gear?

My response is that you can get good at forms, movement, and chi-sau without much contact, but if you are going be good at the core of the art, which is self defense and fighting, you are going to have to spar with some contact. I know you find gloves to be limiting and counter-productive. Your arguments have some merit. On the other hand gloves and gear allow contact to a wider range of targets with greater safety, making it possible to spar more often and without injuries that can set you back.


In other words... I don't have a definitive answer. Heck, as I said at the start, I don't even know if I understand the question! ...Oh well, carry on.

 

[geezer]

How would you know if you were good?

If there's no contact training at all? Well then.... Imagination!

 

[wckf92]

Wait a minute, Guy.... knowing you to be an advocate of bare knuckle sparring, I have to ask for clarification here. Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting without any contact sparring at all? Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, just training without protective gear?

My response is that you can get good at forms, movement, and chi-sau without much contact, but if you are going be good at the core of the art, which is self defense and fighting, you are going to have to spar with some contact. I know you find gloves to be limiting and counter-productive. Your arguments have some merit. On the other hand gloves and gear allow contact to a wider range of targets with greater safety, making it possible to spar more often and without injuries that can set you back.


In other words... I don't have a definitive answer. Heck, as I said at the start, I don't even know if I understand the question! ...Oh well, carry on.

I think he is asking: "Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, just training without protective gear?"... however, the word "sparring" is what (I think) Guy takes issue with... as well as all the pads and protection most kwoon training sessions maximize in their pursuit of the so-called elusive "fighting" art of wing Chun...

 

[wckf92]

How would you know if you were good?

...still standing at the end?

 

[geezer]

...still standing at the end?

That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.

Now I've got a bit of Irish blood in my ancestry. But I'd need a good bit more before I'd find that kind of stuff fun for recreation!

 

[Eric_H]

Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.

However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.

 

[Punchy]

How would you know if you were good?

Simple, just ask us....go ahead, ask me.

 

[Argus]

That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.

Now I've got a bit of Irish blood in my ancestry. But I'd need a good bit more before I'd find that kind of stuff fun for recreation!

Actually, call me crazy, but I think that would be a good experience! Not something I'd do often, and I'd definitely use a mouth piece, at least, as I rather like having all of my teeth, but...

Alternatively / additionally, you could just use open hand strikes to the face / chin. Though, you might run a greater risk of inadvertently eye-gouging your partner. Head gear is also a great option.

That said, I do practice very light contact sparring without gloves or equipment of any kind, and that can serve as a good compromise allowing for both safety and the use of fine motor skills. I'm referring to a kind of Gwor-sau / Lat-sau context here.

However, I think it's more productive to think in terms of diversifying your training. For example, one of my favorite HEMA fencers, Roland Warzecha, conducts practice with blunt weapons, masks, and protective gear, but also with blunts and without masks and protective gear, and also (in a very slow, and controlled environment) with sharps (because of the difference in binding characteristics). With less protective gear, you do need to use more caution and control. But I don't see why you can't train realistically at any level given level of intensity.

 

[Danny T]

...and fighting without doing gloved sparring?

Discuss.

Yes.
But I don't believe you can be very good without doing some type of fighting.
My Sifu talks of his training in Honk Kong was going to the kwoon to train and going on the streets to fight. Then back to the kwoon to discuss and work out what they did well and what to work on to be better. No sparring in training but a lot of fighting on the street.

 

[Argus]

Yes.
But I don't believe you can be very good without doing some type of fighting.
My Sifu talks of his training in Honk Kong was going to the kwoon to train and going on the streets to fight. Then back to the kwoon to discuss and work out what they did well and what to work on to be better. No sparring in training but a lot of fighting on the street.

That would be the "traditional" method!

 

[Danny T]

That would be the "traditional" method!

Difficult to do so in this day and age. Today we fight (spar) vs our training partners.
Major difference is we want training partners, need training partners. When we beat up and hurt our training partners they don't return or if they do it isn't until they are healed; during that time we have lost that partner.
Therefore we spar with safety equipment, gloves, headgear, and shinguards to prevent loss of partners and training time.

 

[guy b.]

Do you mean to ask if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting without any contact sparring at all? Or, are you asking if it's possible to be good at WC and fighting while sparring without gloves, just training without protective gear?

It would be interesting to hear replies to both questions.

Specifically (for those advocating gloved sparring as the only way to reach competence in fighting)

1. Were the founders and your elders in wing chun competent fighters?
2. If they were, how did they get that way?

 

[Argus]

Difficult to do so in this day and age. Today we fight (spar) vs our training partners.
Major difference is we want training partners, need training partners. When we beat up and hurt our training partners they don't return or if they do it isn't until they are healed; during that time we have lost that partner.
Therefore we spar with safety equipment, gloves, headgear, and shinguards to prevent loss of partners and training time.

Of course. Not all that is "traditional" is productive or desirable in a modern context, and sometimes things change for the better.

I just thought it to be an interesting contrast

 

[JowGaWolf]

Don't think they used gloves much back in the 17-1800s when this stuff was getting made, so it's possible.

However, part of making it so that you fulfill your potential is avoiding injury. Gloves and protective gear are just tools to do that. I really don't understand the OP's hangups about it.

I wouldn't recommend gloves during training. Training without gloves helps to condition the hands. Gloves during sparring just depends on what type of sparring you are doing. Some sparring can be done without gloves while other types of sparring should have gloves. You can't train if you are injured all the time from bare knuckles damaging you.

 

[drop bear]

That's for Guy and his bare-knuckle buddies. I'll sit back and watch. ...er No, can't do that either because he won't post videos. Which is OK. I can always go watch those Irish Travelers duking it out on Youtube. Or good ole Kimbo.

Now I've got a bit of Irish blood in my ancestry. But I'd need a good bit more before I'd find that kind of stuff fun for recreation!

Bare knuckle boxing training from what I have seen is gloves on.

 

[JPinAZ]

I'm not sure the OP's hang up with wearing protection when sparring. If he doesn't feel the need, great - I'm sure his dentist loves the extra money. But what does he care if other people prefer some protection when training hard/sparring?

Specifically (for those advocating gloved sparring as the only way to reach competence in fighting)

Could you clarify who is advocating that gloved sparring is the only way? From what I can tell, it's only being listed my members here as a way or a preferred way. Let's not go putting words into other people's mouths to build straw mans here...

 

[geezer]

Could you clarify who is advocating that gloved sparring is the only way? From what I can tell, it's only being listed my members here as a way or a preferred way. Let's not go putting words into other people's mouths to build straw mans here...

Yeah JP. Nobody's really arguing with Guy here. I think he hasn't quite adjusted to the more laid-back atmosphere here.

@Guy, I've never made a video for youtube because I don't even know how too, and because I don't consider myself anything special. But it can't be that hard to do considering all the idiots who do post stuff.

You really should put up a video titled Bare-knuckle Full Contact Wing Chun. I'm sure you'd get a lot of hits! (badda-bum) No seriously, you'd get a lot of views and maybe make some money.

...And of course we'd all be impressed. Well, at least I would be. Not only for the guts it takes to go full out, but even more for the guts it takes to put yourself out there for people to see.