Is having a good teacher enough?

[Bruce7]

When I started MA I Improved much faster than the other students.
At the time I thought I was just more dedicated.
Looking back I think it was because I played football, basketball, and ran track.
5ft 8in 135 lbs could bench 200 one time, ran 440 in 50.3 and half in 2:04.

My granddaughter has studied ballet and swim since age 4,
She became better in a few months than other students who have trained for years.

My other granddaughter stayed with me for just a month and became very good in just a month.
She has done gymnastics and soccer since age 4.
The gymnastic teacher wants her to homeschool and do gymnastic full time.
I am happy her parents said NO!


I guess my point is maybe learning to be good at dance or sports before learning MA might be a better route to becoming a good Martial Artist.

 

[Buka]

In my opinion, it is. And it isn't. Allow me explain.....

I ran a big dojo for a long time. By the luck of circumstance, it was at the right location at the right time. The place was successful, busy, and everyone knew about it. Athletically gifted students joined all the time. And they progressed quickly. There were a lot of good instructors there, and we all had some good instructors ourselves.

The athletically gifted students took off like rocket ships. Which is to be expected. But then.....less athletically gifted students, who worked harder, came more often, worked out at home, and paid attention to details, started to catch up with them. And then surpassed them. And started to politely man handle them. Sometimes it would take a year, or two or three or five. The athletically gifted students suddenly weren't so "gifted" any more.

And I'd sit down and talk to them about that. Some of them understood, some said they did, but didn't really. Some just didn't want to admit it to themselves. Of the athletically gifted ones, a few still train and teach today. But there's far more of the ones who weren't so gifted back then. They sure seem gifted to everyone now.

 

[jobo]

When I started MA I Improved much faster than the other students.
At the time I thought I was just more dedicated.
Looking back I think it was because I played football, basketball, and ran track.
5ft 8in 135 lbs could bench 200 one time, ran 440 in 50.3 and half in 2:04.

My granddaughter has studied ballet and swim since age 4,
She became better in a few months than other students who have trained for years.

My other granddaughter stayed with me for just a month and became very good in just a month.
She has done gymnastics and soccer since age 4.
The gymnastic teacher wants her to homeschool and do gymnastic full time.
I am happy her parents said NO!


I guess my point is maybe learning to be good at dance or sports before learning MA might be a better route to becoming a good Martial Artist.

i think yes is the answer to the go dancing question, whilst also accepting, buka experiences of people who continue to improve over years, decades.

its really where your plunging into the persons development and how long you want before ma becomes effective

ive noticed a mental cut off with some on here between, ma as a emotional l/spiritual development and fighting as a physical ability or sport.

lets be clear fighting is one of the most physically demanding of human activities, those that have previously developed their physical attributes are going to have a far easier time when they walk through the door and will possibly reach a level of competence where they can use their skill effectively far far sooner

if people who start from an undeveloped positions can match or surpass them over time, really depends on the nature of the training and how much time your thinking of

yes of course, nearly every one can make great improvements in their physical abilities, provided the training either in the dojo or alone allows that level of improvement to happen

or to put it another way, if your training is 10 years of feeble bouncing about and slow motion sparing.. doing the same thing with the same intensity, your development will stop after 12 months, where as something like gymnastics or dancing will naturally push your development. and gymnastics is one of the few things in the world that is more physical demanding than fighting

if you set off with purpose in pursuit of a goal, then the upper limit is only defined by your genetic limit, and that far higher than 99 % of the population ever achieve, so you can easily passe, more talented but less dedicated people

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Not before, do it during. Strength and conditioning is important for any sport including martial arts and since a lot dont do proper S&C you would generally out compete them. (by proper i mean the full range, not just cardio/calisphenics) I was watching a video where the person said the person who hit the hardest in their baton qualification did tennis/badmington and there were FMA people doing it as well. That at least highlights the usefulness in now and then doing a small sport game as a warmup, as its fun and it benefits S&C. Or routinely doing it.

 

[jobo]

Not before, do it during. Strength and conditioning is important for any sport including martial arts and since a lot dont do proper S&C you would generally out compete them. (by proper i mean the full range, not just cardio/calisphenics) I was watching a video where the person said the person who hit the hardest in their baton qualification did tennis/badmington and there were FMA people doing it as well. That at least highlights the usefulness in now and then doing a small sport game as a warmup, as its fun and it benefits

however people tend to gravitate to thing they are natraly good atS&C. Or routinely doing it.

theirs a significant over lap between attributes developed for one sport and the attributes needed for most sports, its no co incidence that people who have talent at one physical activity can generally do most with a reasonably amount of skill and can easily change sports and become quite quickly more than proficient with some practice

professional soccer players are it seems all '' good'' golfers and snooker players, golf and snooker being the only other sports they let them play through fear of injury

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In my opinion, it is. And it isn't. Allow me explain.....

I ran a big dojo for a long time. By the luck of circumstance, it was at the right location at the right time. The place was successful, busy, and everyone knew about it. Athletically gifted students joined all the time. And they progressed quickly. There were a lot of good instructors there, and we all had some good instructors ourselves.

The athletically gifted students took off like rocket ships. Which is to be expected. But then.....less athletically gifted students, who worked harder, came more often, worked out at home, and paid attention to details, started to catch up with them. And then surpassed them. And started to politely man handle them. Sometimes it would take a year, or two or three or five. The athletically gifted students suddenly weren't so "gifted" any more.

And I'd sit down and talk to them about that. Some of them understood, some said they did, but didn't really. Some just didn't want to admit it to themselves. Of the athletically gifted ones, a few still train and teach today. But there's far more of the ones who weren't so gifted back then. They sure seem gifted to everyone now.

IMO, this phenomenon applies to more than just martial arts.

Coming into a field with pre-existing ability (whether that stems from genetics or relevant experience growing up) can make progress much quicker and easier. The potential downside is when the student expects the progress to always continue being that quick and easy. In that case they may end up getting stuck at whatever level the work gets hard.

I have a friend I used to be in a band with. She had easily 50 times my natural musical ability. She was a bit of a childhood prodigy and melodies came naturally to her. In contrast, I started out tone deaf and arrhythmic. Over the years, I improved bit by painstaking bit, gradually getting a handle on the fundamentals of music. My friend hit a plateau and just stopped. The giveaway came when I encouraged her to do certain exercises with the metronome and with moveable scales. She said “I can’t do those.” Not won’t - can’t. What she meant, but couldn’t articulate, was that she was used to music just coming to her out of the aether like a magical gift from the gods. These (standard) exercises are in the beginning dry and rote and don’t feel very musical until you’ve spent a lot of time internalizing them. I was used to that because everything I had learned was dry and rote and tedious until I did the work to make it musical. For her it was like the music gods had abandoned her and it felt impossible.

Eventually I surpassed her technically, even though she had the natural talent to be 100 times the musician that I was.

I think most of the very best people in a field, be it music, martial arts, or whatever, are those who have natural talent, good instruction, and the willingness to keep working hard for years even when they reach the limits of their natural talent and inspiration. That’s a tiny percentage of the people out there. Below that very top tier, dedication and work ethic are probably more important than talent.

One of the cool things about martial arts is that they generally have a culture that emphasizes dedication over talent. The prevailing idea is that just about anyone can get really good if they put in the work. This is in contrast to the usual ideas about music, where talent is seen as the key and those who lack it are discouraged from continuing. (Which is why it’s hard to find a music teacher who knows how to guide a non-gifted student into true musicianship.)

 

[Headhunter]

Well I have never done a single other sport and it never hindered me i always learned fast enough and got my physical abilities up to a higher level than most in my club. Before I started I was out of shape. After a year or 2 I was one of the fittest in the club, a year later I was the fittest

 

[skribs]

Yes.

Regardless of your previous experience, a good instructor is key.

If you want to learn martial arts, then start right away. Don't put other hurdles in front of yourself first.

In the time it takes you to learn ballet or do your weight training, you'll be well ahead in martial arts.

 

[jobo]

Yes.

Regardless of your previous experience, a good instructor is key.

If you want to learn martial arts, then start right away. Don't put other hurdles in front of yourself first.

In the time it takes you to learn ballet or do your weight training, you'll be well ahead in martial arts.

thats not really a reasonable comparison, someone who has done say 5 years a ballet, is going to find ma a piece of cake, just on fitness, strength agility flexibility they will be a head of most people who have spent the same five years doing most ma, certainly ahead of those who have not been doing competitive ma at a good level, i suspect if you stuck the average MA in a ballet class they would struggle

weight training is a bit harder to quantify,

but if 6 months of conditioning training gives you a better physical condition than 6 months of ma, then its a good use of time of course you could do both, so its not an either or situation

 

[Headhunter]

Yes.

Regardless of your previous experience, a good instructor is key.

If you want to learn martial arts, then start right away. Don't put other hurdles in front of yourself first.

In the time it takes you to learn ballet or do your weight training, you'll be well ahead in martial arts.

Agreed. Anything is an advantage. But you want to learn martial arts you’ve to go learn the martial arts

 

[isshinryuronin]

In my experience, I have also seen dancers to be among the quickest to become proficient in karate - boxers among the slowest. There are several reasons for this: less ego to get in the way, reliance on technique over power, great coordination and smooth flow, experience in a wider range of motions, etc. to name a few.

It's also a given than natural athleticism and ability (in any field) is a great plus, but is secondary to determination and dedication. Reading several accounts of SEAL training, it seems that the most physical types have no advantage over the scrawny feisty types in completing the course. And don't forget the tortoise and the hare.

As for the importance of the teacher, he is the influencer, the guider, the molder of the hunk of clay. But the nature of the clay is what counts. Some are soft and easily worked, others are unyielding and resistant to sculpting. It is difficult to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. A good instructor recognizes the type of clay he is working with and has the skill to recognize the pivot points to correct. A word here, a slight adjustment there, can lead to a major improvement in the student's performance. IMO, this is the most important skill a good teacher can have.

"Mind, body and spirit" is the triad of success - The teacher is the mind, the student's athleticism is the body and his dedication is the spirit. While two out of three ain't bad, having all three is a blessing.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In general I'd say that anything that improves your athleticism will improve your ability to learn new martial arts. If you feel like you're getting stuck at a point, you may want to branch out-if you're agility seems to be lacking, pick up parkour. If your flexibility is lacking, or you feel clunky, take up dancing. But (if your goal is MA) try out MA first, and then see what you're lacking in.

 

[drop bear]

IMO, this phenomenon applies to more than just martial arts.

Coming into a field with pre-existing ability (whether that stems from genetics or relevant experience growing up) can make progress much quicker and easier. The potential downside is when the student expects the progress to always continue being that quick and easy. In that case they may end up getting stuck at whatever level the work gets hard.

I have a friend I used to be in a band with. She had easily 50 times my natural musical ability. She was a bit of a childhood prodigy and melodies came naturally to her. In contrast, I started out tone deaf and arrhythmic. Over the years, I improved bit by painstaking bit, gradually getting a handle on the fundamentals of music. My friend hit a plateau and just stopped. The giveaway came when I encouraged her to do certain exercises with the metronome and with moveable scales. She said “I can’t do those.” Not won’t - can’t. What she meant, but couldn’t articulate, was that she was used to music just coming to her out of the aether like a magical gift from the gods. These (standard) exercises are in the beginning dry and rote and don’t feel very musical until you’ve spent a lot of time internalizing them. I was used to that because everything I had learned was dry and rote and tedious until I did the work to make it musical. For her it was like the music gods had abandoned her and it felt impossible.

Eventually I surpassed her technically, even though she had the natural talent to be 100 times the musician that I was.

I think most of the very best people in a field, be it music, martial arts, or whatever, are those who have natural talent, good instruction, and the willingness to keep working hard for years even when they reach the limits of their natural talent and inspiration. That’s a tiny percentage of the people out there. Below that very top tier, dedication and work ethic are probably more important than talent.

One of the cool things about martial arts is that they generally have a culture that emphasizes dedication over talent. The prevailing idea is that just about anyone can get really good if they put in the work. This is in contrast to the usual ideas about music, where talent is seen as the key and those who lack it are discouraged from continuing. (Which is why it’s hard to find a music teacher who knows how to guide a non-gifted student into true musicianship.)

The thing that has been driven home to me by our strength and conditioning coach is that the elements of athleticism are almost the most consistent part of martial arts.

So even if you are a Gumby if you lift weight you will get stronger. If you stretch you will get more flexible, if you cardio you will get fitter.

They are the elements that rely the least on talent.

And this is where the myth of the combat sports gym is born. Because nobody sees or nobody accepts the doughy useless soft kid who walks in to the gym. They only ever see the terrifying kill monster who walks out.

 

[drop bear]

And so for the OP I will say no a good teacher is not enough in the sense that if you have access to a specialist in movement or strength or fitness or even a certain aspect of your martial arts. Striking, wrestling. Whatever. You will get better.

This is why top gyms have multiple trainers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I guess my point is maybe learning to be good at dance or sports before learning MA might be a better route to becoming a good Martial Artist.

Without MA training, your body is like 3 springs that compress and release independently. After MA training, you can coordinate all 3 springs to compress at the same time, and also release at the same time.

After you have learned how to coordinate your hand with your foot, you can learn any sport with less effort. To the other people, they have to worry about 2 hands and 2 legs. To you, you only have to worry about the coordination of 1 of your hands with 1 of your legs, and the coordination of another hand with another leg. Your task has been cut in half.

After many years of CMA training, I became a folk dancing instructor. During my college years, I won both the swing dancing and A GO GO dancing champions. That was some good old days.

My path was: MA -> dancing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A teacher can lead you inside the MA door, the rest will be all up to you.

The reason is simple.

- Your teacher can help you to develop techniques (such as how to punch).
- You have to develop ability all by yourself (such as heavy bag training).

 

[dvcochran]

When I started MA I Improved much faster than the other students.
At the time I thought I was just more dedicated.
Looking back I think it was because I played football, basketball, and ran track.
5ft 8in 135 lbs could bench 200 one time, ran 440 in 50.3 and half in 2:04.

My granddaughter has studied ballet and swim since age 4,
She became better in a few months than other students who have trained for years.

My other granddaughter stayed with me for just a month and became very good in just a month.
She has done gymnastics and soccer since age 4.
The gymnastic teacher wants her to homeschool and do gymnastic full time.
I am happy her parents said NO!


I guess my point is maybe learning to be good at dance or sports before learning MA might be a better route to becoming a good Martial Artist.

As you infer, it sounds like you have genetics that lean toward being physically gifted. Couple this with an already active lifestyle and an activity like MA's, dance, gymnastics, etc.... will usually be easier at least in the beginning.
I think of it as the beginner, intermediate, advanced model.
A fit, active person will naturally have fewer hurdles to get to a beginner's level versus an out of shape couch potato.
Then the mental component becomes a bigger factor. The "out of shape" guy has gotten over some of the physical stressors and, if they are mentally tougher and more into the training, will match and possibly pass the other person in terms of technical skill. May never be as 'pretty' or flashy but more than competent. This is commonly the point that some physically gifted people quit. It is no longer 'easy' to stay ahead of the pack and that is a new feeling for them leading some to give it up. Sad but a reality in our environment.
At the advanced stage I think things are more individual. Everyone should be at the same level of proficiency but some will be able to take their training farther in certain area, competition for example.

Where is the instructor in this? I think a good instructor will recognize each persons strengths and weaknesses and 'model' their instruction to shore up these areas.
That said, I also think there is more responsibility on the student to learn than there is on the instructor to teach. That is not to say the instructor does not have to know or do as much. It is to say they already know the given curriculum and the student does not, thus the weight of learning is on the student.
Certainly, the quality or ability to express information or to simply teach in an effective manner go a long way. This is not MA's specific. Poor teachers/instructors can be seen in all walks of life. I think this measurement is best made using the results, not intangibles like personality or such.

 

[Danny T]

Having a good instructor is important.
Desire to learn and do what is needed to develop the proper attributes required is even more so.
I can be an amazing cook, it's up to you to eat.

 

[skribs]

thats not really a reasonable comparison, someone who has done say 5 years a ballet, is going to find ma a piece of cake, just on fitness, strength agility flexibility they will be a head of most people who have spent the same five years doing most ma, certainly ahead of those who have not been doing competitive ma at a good level, i suspect if you stuck the average MA in a ballet class they would struggle

weight training is a bit harder to quantify,

but if 6 months of conditioning training gives you a better physical condition than 6 months of ma, then its a good use of time of course you could do both, so its not an either or situation

I was answering the question of "I guess my point is maybe learning to be good at dance or sports before learning MA might be a better route to becoming a good Martial Artist." I don't agree with that.

If one person has a crossroads in front of them, where they can choose to take dance for three years and then do martial arts, or do martial arts now (and their goal is to learn martial arts), then that's a horrible plan.

On the other hand, if they'd like to learn both and prioritize dance, then that's a great plan. If they'd like to learn both, and can do both at the same time, I agree with you. I was just rejecting the idea that it's better to do something else first, if your goal is martial arts expertise.

 

[Bruce7]

I have enjoyed this post, because everyones posts were good.

I was think more about children than adults.
Back when I was looking for a school, I noticed very few of the young black belts had good balance.
I understand the reason why schools teach punches and kicks, not standing in stance for a long peiod of time, it is boring and a little painful.
You would lose to many students, it is not practical.

A study of ballet or gymnastics after years of exercize to develop balance, will better understand the importance stances and movement.
A ten year old starting there study of MA with 6 years of ballet will see the importance of stance and movement over the fun of kicking and punching.
Most ten year old MA don't think or care about stance and movement, they like kicking and punching.

When I coached High School Tennis, I liked the freshman athlete who nothing about tennis, because he did not have to unlearn bad habits that would hold him back from becoming a real good tennis player.

IMO it would be very hard to teach a young black belt to develop proper balance for number of reasons.