Is ball of the foot roundhouse outdated with modern shoes?

seasoned

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You are neglecting the fact that the instep is hard, ball of the foot is soft...
Hardness of the tool affects penetration.

Ball of the foot is obviously harder with shoe surface though.
Correct. But still positioning your foot for a ball of the foot strike will not effect a rigid shoe, but it will support the foot itself as the point, "tip of the shoe" delivers a, as Bill mentioned.......(the ball of the foot is a penetrating kick, and it recoils instantly)
 
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InfiniteLoop

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Correct. But still positioning your foot for a ball of the food strike will not effect a rigid shoe, but it will support the foot itself as the point, "tip of the shoe" delivers a, as Bill mentioned.......(the ball of the foot is a penetrating kick, and it recoils instantly)

The main reason ball of the foot is advocated for self defense (regardless of shoe or not shoe) is to avoid breaking your foot, which you will do with an instep to a human skull at full force, or at least damage it considerably.

Either one is fine to the body.
 
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InfiniteLoop

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And Yes, Olympic TaeKwonDo guys who do injure their feet.. they tend to use techniques that land with the bottom part of their foot, like axe kick crescent kick, side kick.

In ITF we have old school american Kickboxing shoes. But I have still blown up my instep like a bee sting when I hit an elbow.......
 

Bill Mattocks

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You are neglecting the fact that the instep is hard, ball of the foot is soft...
Hardness of the tool affects penetration.

Ball of the foot is obviously harder with shoe surface though.
I beg your pardon, but you are mistaken. The ball of the foot is hard. Or it should be. The instep is much more surface area, less pounds per square inch. It's really down to basic math.
 
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I beg your pardon, but you are mistaken. The ball of the foot is hard. Or it should be. The instep is much more surface area, less pounds per square inch. It's really down to basic math.

The ball of the foot is a thick layer of skin, instep is bone
 

Buka

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Anyone that injures their foot hitting with a sidekick has no idea how to kick.
 

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What do you mean how? A decision was made that It's not a scoring technique anymore.
Can you reference a link supporting this? I find nothing on it.
This is the closest thing I have found and would not be relevant for a roundhouse motion:

"Contestants also have to watch out how they deliver their kicks to the trunk PSS, as one can lose a point for attacking with the side or bottom of the foot while the knee is pointed out in clinch position."

Ref:

WT Scoring Rules

 

andyjeffries

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Ball of the foot is illegal these days in Olympics. Or more correctly: "non scoring"

What do you mean how? A decision was made that It's not a scoring technique anymore.

Just to be clear, I don't think it was ever decided that it's not a scoring technique per se. I think you're confusing a side effect of another change with an intentional decision.

WT had to move to electronic scoring to appease the IOC after a number of non-scoring scandals (Sarah Stevenson in Beijing being the most popular one). I agree with the decision (it's fairer to have it done by electronics, even though it's lead to players playing to the system).

Knowing where the magnets are in the foot protectors (aka socks) there's no magnet under the ball of the foot, so you won't score with it. That said I don't think it was an intentional decision to stop the ball of the foot being a scoring kicking surface, but more of a "who wants to be turning on the ball of their foot all match/session long with a magnet under it".
 
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Just to be clear, I don't think it was ever decided that it's not a scoring technique per se. I think you're confusing a side effect of another change with an intentional decision.

WT had to move to electronic scoring to appease the IOC after a number of non-scoring scandals (Sarah Stevenson in Beijing being the most popular one). I agree with the decision (it's fairer to have it done by electronics, even though it's lead to players playing to the system).

Knowing where the magnets are in the foot protectors (aka socks) there's no magnet under the ball of the foot, so you won't score with it. That said I don't think it was an intentional decision to stop the ball of the foot being a scoring kicking surface, but more of a "who wants to be turning on the ball of their foot all match/session long with a magnet under it".

So it's still scoring in lower level regional competition? I'm guessing the electronics isn't part of all levels
 

andyjeffries

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So it's still scoring in lower level regional competition? I'm guessing the electronics isn't part of all levels
I'd guess so. I haven't been to any competitions that don't use electronics in YEARS.

The official WT rules still list "any part of the foot below the ankle bone" as a permitted technique (Article 11) and scoring is done when a permitted technique is delivered to a scoring area (Article 12), so the intricacies of electronic scoring aside - I'd say if you're at a competition without electronic scoring then they'd score it.

 
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I'd guess so. I haven't been to any competitions that don't use electronics in YEARS.

The official WT rules still list "any part of the foot below the ankle bone" as a permitted technique (Article 11) and scoring is done when a permitted technique is delivered to a scoring area (Article 12), so the intricacies of electronic scoring aside - I'd say if you're at a competition without electronic scoring then they'd score it.


I watched a regional competition in my country and it looks like a different sport without the electronics. Similar to 90s WTF
 

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I'm not entirely sure, but I believe it's because of the contraction of the calf and quad muscles when bending back the foot to use the ball of your foot.

But it is definitely slower.
Right you are. A really fast round kick is more like whip than a bat. We went over this last night in my Muay Thai class. Ideally, the kick uses minimal leg muscles. It is all hip. The hip lifts the loose leg into the chamber and the power comes from the support foot pivoting, causing the hip and the shoulder to "whip" towards the target. Tension in the leg, which would be required to use the ball of the foot, slows it down. And even though my original training was in Karate', I have to admit that Muay Thai has the best tradeoff of speed and power with round kicks of any art. I watch the competitors training on the heavy bag and their kicks sound like thunderclaps when they hit. The range is not as good, as a Karate' kick, but range can be managed.
 
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Right you are. A really fast round kick is more like whip than a bat. We went over this last night in my Muay Thai class. Ideally, the kick uses minimal leg muscles. It is all hip. The hip lifts the loose leg into the chamber and the power comes from the support foot pivoting, causing the hip and the shoulder to "whip" towards the target. Tension in the leg, which would be required to use the ball of the foot, slows it down. And even though my original training was in Karate', I have to admit that Muay Thai has the best tradeoff of speed and power with round kicks of any art. I watch the competitors training on the heavy bag and their kicks sound like thunderclaps when they hit. The range is not as good, as a Karate' kick, but range can be managed.

So my round kick failed to intimidate you?
 

dvcochran

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Right you are. A really fast round kick is more like whip than a bat. We went over this last night in my Muay Thai class. Ideally, the kick uses minimal leg muscles. It is all hip. The hip lifts the loose leg into the chamber and the power comes from the support foot pivoting, causing the hip and the shoulder to "whip" towards the target. Tension in the leg, which would be required to use the ball of the foot, slows it down. And even though my original training was in Karate', I have to admit that Muay Thai has the best tradeoff of speed and power with round kicks of any art. I watch the competitors training on the heavy bag and their kicks sound like thunderclaps when they hit. The range is not as good, as a Karate' kick, but range can be managed.
I like this comment. It has a ton of sound logic in it. I love the description of making power. While slightly different from my TKD description, they are very close. Core strength, rotation, and leg position are the three main pillars of making strength for the roundhouse.

I would counter somewhat since the mechanics should stay the same for both kicks until the last moments of the kick. No, I do not think this is true 100% of the time but it is ideal. I would also add there is a reduction since tip speed is slightly different. FPM=RPM x 262 x blade diameter. In our application we would use a measurement from the knee down. Keeping it easy let's say that is 20" flat footed and 25" foot extended.
1(used for RPM) x 262 x 20 = 5,240fpm - In a 20" motion this equals 4.3" at the tip.
1(used for RPM) x 262 x 25 = 6,550fpm - In a 25" motion this equals 5.4" at the tip.

Yes, in the moment an inch is equal to a mile but in the sparring dynamic this is not hugely repeatable. But the bigger value in my opinion is using the right part of the foot at the right time. So, speed it not that huge of a factor.

One very effective strategy I remember using is to set up an opponent by throwing several kicks at slightly slower speed.
 

SahBumNimRush

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The ball of the foot is a thick layer of skin, instep is bone
If you put a thick layer of padding on a hammer head, I think the hammer head would still do more damage than striking something with the side of the shaft. It is the axial loading vs. transverse loading. Transverse loading increases sheer force, leading to fracture.
 

dvcochran

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If you put a thick layer of padding on a hammer head, I think the hammer head would still do more damage than striking something with the side of the shaft. It is the axial loading vs. transverse loading. Transverse loading increases sheer force, leading to fracture.
I do not feel you could ever apply axial loading to a roundhouse kick because of the rotational nature of the motion and the hinge affect of the ankle and to a degree even the knee.
Here is the shortest video I could find.

axial vs. transverse
 

isshinryuronin

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a reduction since tip speed is slightly different. FPM=RPM x 262 x blade diameter. In our application we would use a measurement from the knee down. Keeping it easy let's say that is 20" flat footed and 25" foot extended.
1(used for RPM) x 262 x 20 = 5,240fpm - In a 20" motion this equals 4.3" at the tip.
1(used for RPM) x 262 x 25 = 6,550fpm - In a 25" motion this equals 5.4" at the tip.

It is the axial loading vs. transverse loading. Transverse loading increases sheer force, leading to fracture.
So, in other words: Get in range and kick him in the nuts hard and fast. Did I get all the math right?
 

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I use ball of the foot, shin, and instep depending on what I am trying to accomplish and who I am hitting. I have used all 3 in sparring safely but definitely have to be more aware of my opponent with the ball of the foot to make sure they don't move into it and get hurt. As far as kicking with shoes; I have also kicked heavy bags, bob, trees ( I get bored when I'm outside with my kid and start kicking random things, its an odd quirk but oh well) with the ball of the foot and found that most athletic sneakers are fine. They usually have an inclined sole at the toe making it pretty easy to hit with the ball of the foot or they are such firm rubber that even if you hit with your toes it doesn't really hurt. However, this does not work with flip-flops and sandals (owch!). I would say if you want to know how well it works just start kicking something.
 

SahBumNimRush

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I do not feel you could ever apply axial loading to a roundhouse kick because of the rotational nature of the motion and the hinge affect of the ankle and to a degree even the knee.
Here is the shortest video I could find.

axial vs. transverse

Anatomically, you are axially loading the 1st metatarsal in a roundhouse kick in which you pull the toes back and strike with the ball of the foot. If striking with the instep or top of foot, it would be transverse loading the 1st metatarsal, as well as maybe the navicular bone.
 
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