Intro to weapons considerations in a ground grappling context

drop bear

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Cool vid. The shutting down risks is the best policy I have found as well.


I am personally a fan of Kasa and gift wrapping to achieve the same end. And my theory is I don't like my knees getting scraped. And it is a bit easier for me.

One thing I have found fighting people is I can be there for a long time. I have sat on dudes for 20 minutes waiting for the cops.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Cool vid. The shutting down risks is the best policy I have found as well.


I am personally a fan of Kasa and gift wrapping to achieve the same end. And my theory is I don't like my knees getting scraped. And it is a bit easier for me.

One thing I have found fighting people is I can be there for a long time. I have sat on dudes for 20 minutes waiting for the cops.
Gift wrap is a really good option if you can get it. Kesa is situational. If I'm by myself and might need to disengage and bail quickly, then it's not ideal. If you're holding someone for the cops as part of your job and you have a co-worker to watch your back, then I can see the advantages.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Unfortunately my gym has terrible acoustics. I really need to start working on clear vocal projection to compensate for these videos.
 

Pokitren

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This one is a little long because I was rambling off the cuff and I'm still getting the hang of video editing, but hopefully my points come across.
A lot of good thoughts and words, thank you. What I didn't like was the opponent, who is lower by a head. It is worth recording a similar video with an equal opponent and a taller one.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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A lot of good thoughts and words, thank you. What I didn't like was the opponent, who is lower by a head. It is worth recording a similar video with an equal opponent and a taller one.
Haven't watched it yet, but I can't imagine there's enough of a difference between the two for the effort of 3 separate videos portraying the same concepts to be worth recording (or watching).
 
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Tony Dismukes

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A lot of good thoughts and words, thank you. What I didn't like was the opponent, who is lower by a head. It is worth recording a similar video with an equal opponent and a taller one.
The techniques in this case end up looking pretty much exactly the same. (There are techniques and situations where height considerations can change what techniques you use and what they end up looking like, but not for the material in this video.)

Im somewhat limited in my selection of demo partners by who shows up for class that day. I prefer to use higher ranked students for demos. Im 64, so Im almost always taller than my partners. On that day, the only students who were even close to my size were a couple of brand new white belts. So I ended up doing most of the demo with Jeff who was the highest ranked student in class that evening. But hes really short, so it made me look like a big bully picking on a little kid.

When I have the chance and have some big, experienced students in class who are willing to appear on video Ill definitely use them for demos. But that will be as the opportunity arises.
 

jayoliver00

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This one is a little long because I was rambling off the cuff and I'm still getting the hang of video editing, but hopefully my points come across.

man, that's not fair. what next, a 1 on 1 game of basketball vs. him?
 

Old Happy Tiger

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This one is a little long because I was rambling off the cuff and I'm still getting the hang of video editing, but hopefully my points come across.
I'll would never make a comment on a martial art that is being shown that I don't know or currently practice (being the BJJ you are teaching).. And I would never reference any videos, for example implying against the methods on what you are posting or showing to refute what you are saying, as I again I don't practice BJJ at all and have no real world experience in BJJ as a self-defensive fighting style,

Respectfully, I do have some questions for you.

1) Do you tell your students that 95% of the time, the knife in question will be a modern pocket knife and will be on clipped inside the pocket itself and not noticeable?

2) Does your students know that a common pocket knife that has a spring assist or manual "flipper" can also be concealed in one hand closed and can be deployed out a ready position OR deployed from a pocketed postion without your students even seeing or knowing that the attacker even has a knife?

3) Do you tell your students, that regardless if they go to 'the ground" or not, and a person has a knife, not only are they not going to see it, they most likely will be cut? Do they have that in mindset when they are training in this manner of BJJ?

4) Do you tell your students regardless if they are on the ground, the most vulnerable areas are not just the throat, but the subclavian artery in the neck? Not just the kidneys, heart, groin and eyes but ALSO the underside of the arms? A lot of people forget that the underside of the arms are the easiest targets.. That is why the arms are favored targets by Kali and pencak silat practitioners.

Thank You for your time and courtesy, reading my questions today.
 
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Dirty Dog

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1) Do you tell your students that 95%
Do you have a source for this number, or is it just something you made up?
of the time, the knife in question will be a modern pocket knife and will be on clipped inside the pocket itself and not noticeable?
I notice pocket knives all the time... The clipped ones are the easiest ones to see.
2) Does your students know that a common pocket knife that has a spring assist or manual "flipper" can also be concealed in one hand closed and can be deployed out a ready position OR deployed from a pocketed postion without your students even seeing or knowing that the attacker even has a knife?
The vast majority of pocket knives in the US are designed for one hand opening. You may or may not notice a knife. You also may or may not notice a gun. Or lots of other things.
3) Do you tell your students, that regardless if they go to 'the ground" or not, and a person has a knife, not only are they not going to see it, they most likely will be cut? Do they have that in mindset when they are training in this manner of BJJ?
Do you have a source for "not going to see it" and "most likely"? Anecdotes are not science, but I personally have had a knife pulled on me with intent on three occasions. I was injured on one of them. So that would seem to argue against your claim.

There is a good chance you will be injured, but I do not believe there is any support for claims of how likely that is. Nor for the claim that the weapon will not be seen.
4) Do you tell your students regardless if they are on the ground, the most vulnerable areas are not just the throat, but the subclavian artery in the neck?
The subclavian arteries are not in the neck. They are subCLAVIAN, meaning under the clavicle. They're in the chest.
The vessels most subject to being cut in the neck are the external jugulars. The trachea is fairly easy to damage, but that's not nearly as lethal as people seem to think. The internal jugulars and carotids are really quite deep and are rarely injured when the throat is cut. Doesn't matter if the injury is self-inflicted or caused by an assault. That's based on 40+ years in the ER and keeping up with the literature for the same period.
 

drop bear

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I'll would never make a comment on a martial art that is being shown that I don't know or currently practice (being the BJJ you are teaching).. And I would never reference any videos, for example implying against the methods on what you are posting or showing to refute what you are saying, as I again I don't practice BJJ at all and have no real world experience in BJJ as a self-defensive fighting style,

Respectfully, I do have some questions for you.

1) Do you tell your students that 95% of the time, the knife in question will be a modern pocket knife and will be on clipped inside the pocket itself and not noticeable?

2) Does your students know that a common pocket knife that has a spring assist or manual "flipper" can also be concealed in one hand closed and can be deployed out a ready position OR deployed from a pocketed postion without your students even seeing or knowing that the attacker even has a knife?

3) Do you tell your students, that regardless if they go to 'the ground" or not, and a person has a knife, not only are they not going to see it, they most likely will be cut? Do they have that in mindset when they are training in this manner of BJJ?

4) Do you tell your students regardless if they are on the ground, the most vulnerable areas are not just the throat, but the subclavian artery in the neck? Not just the kidneys, heart, groin and eyes but ALSO the underside of the arms? A lot of people forget that the underside of the arms are the easiest targets.. That is why the arms are favored targets by Kali and pencak silat practitioners.

Thank You for your time and courtesy, reading my questions today.

The idea is you shut down the arms so they can't access a weapon. Whether there is a weapon or not.

And be on the lookout for hands going in to pockets whether you see a weapon or not.

Which then also prevents them punching or scratching you or whatever. And makes it harder to defend the pin.
 

Old Happy Tiger

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Do you have a source for this number, or is it just something you made up?

I notice pocket knives all the time... The clipped ones are the easiest ones to see.

The vast majority of pocket knives in the US are designed for one hand opening. You may or may not notice a knife. You also may or may not notice a gun. Or lots of other things.

Do you have a source for "not going to see it" and "most likely"? Anecdotes are not science, but I personally have had a knife pulled on me with intent on three occasions. I was injured on one of them. So that would seem to argue against your claim.

There is a good chance you will be injured, but I do not believe there is any support for claims of how likely that is. Nor for the claim that the weapon will not be seen.

The subclavian arteries are not in the neck. They are subCLAVIAN, meaning under the clavicle. They're in the chest.
The vessels most subject to being cut in the neck are the external jugulars. The trachea is fairly easy to damage, but that's not nearly as lethal as people seem to think. The internal jugulars and carotids are really quite deep and are rarely injured when the throat is cut. Doesn't matter if the injury is self-inflicted or caused by an assault. That's based on 40+ years in the ER and keeping up with the literature for the same period.
I was asking the OP, in regards to the BJJ that he is training his students. They were just questions. And respectfully, I don't have to link source references to what I posted as it was just again.. questions.
 

Old Happy Tiger

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The idea is you shut down the arms so they can't access a weapon. Whether there is a weapon or not.

And be on the lookout for hands going in to pockets whether you see a weapon or not.

Which then also prevents them punching or scratching you or whatever. And makes it harder to defend the pin.
Thanks, I understand what you wrote. Respectfully, I was just asking the OP in regards to what he was teaching and if his students knew that information regarding the questions that I was asking... That's all.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I was asking the OP, in regards to the BJJ that he is training his students. They were just questions. And respectfully, I don't have to link source references to what I posted as it was just again.. questions.
But your questions are based on the idea that the OP would spread misinformation.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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1) Do you tell your students that 95% of the time, the knife in question will be a modern pocket knife and will be on clipped inside the pocket itself and not noticeable?

2) Does your students know that a common pocket knife that has a spring assist or manual "flipper" can also be concealed in one hand closed and can be deployed out a ready position OR deployed from a pocketed postion without your students even seeing or knowing that the attacker even has a knife?

3) Do you tell your students, that regardless if they go to 'the ground" or not, and a person has a knife, not only are they not going to see it, they most likely will be cut? Do they have that in mindset when they are training in this manner of BJJ?

4) Do you tell your students regardless if they are on the ground, the most vulnerable areas are not just the throat, but the subclavian artery in the neck? Not just the kidneys, heart, groin and eyes but ALSO the underside of the arms? A lot of people forget that the underside of the arms are the easiest targets.. That is why the arms are favored targets by Kali and pencak silat practitioners.
I'll disregard for now questionable statistics and anatomy and summarize your first 3 questions as follows: Do I teach my students that in a (non-sport) environment an opponent might be carrying an inobtrusive, easy-to-deploy, lethal weapon and that they may not even see the weapon until it is too late?

To which I would reply, did you even watch the video or listen to what I was saying in the lesson? The entire premise was that the opponent might have such a weapon on their person and you might not be aware of it. That's why I emphasized immediate control of an opponent's wrists, from a position which allows control of the wrists and control of the body and allows quick disengagement if that control of the wrists or body fails, It's why I emphasized not allowing the opponent to access their belt line or pockets (or your own beltline/pockets if you happen to be carrying a weapon).

As a bonus, that same approach is also very useful and effective if the opponent happens to not have a weapon.

Regarding the final point regarding the most vulnerable areas to a knife, I didn't focus on it in this particular lesson because a knife can inflict serious damage almost anywhere on the body and if you give the knife wielder free movement to execute the sewing-machine style attack I demonstrated in the video they can quite possibly inflict cuts and stabs all over the body in a matter of seconds. If you've reached the point of just trying to protect those "most vulnerable" parts of your body at the expense of the rest of you, you're quite likely in serious trouble already. The tactics which give you the greatest chance of protecting your most vulnerable body parts are the same tactics which give you the greatest chance of protecting the rest of you as well.
 

drop bear

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Thanks, I understand what you wrote. Respectfully, I was just asking the OP in regards to what he was teaching and if his students knew that information regarding the questions that I was asking... That's all.
It is not really what BJJ does.

It is much more directed at an idea a test and a conclusion. And using that body of evidence to create a concept.

So the priorities of what someone should know becomes a bit different.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Finally got around to watch it. Thank you for posting this one.
You hit all the points I've noticed, along with a few others, and have given me a lot to think about. I wish I still had a bjj school with people I'm familiar with, so I could show some of them this video and we could drill.

Regarding some of the issues/complaints, with the audio-I'd agree. I had to put my headphones in, and was fine once I did, but definitely an issue there. Not enough to cause serious headache though. Regarding the size, none of what you did had size matter, and the one time you wanted to demonstrate it wasn't strength, you pulled someone taller in, so no issues there. Regarding not mentioning that someone can have a knife you don't notice...what? I went into the video expecting that to not be fully addressed. I counted around 10 times you explicitly reminded people that was an issue, even with no knives/weapons in play, and how to handle general takedowns/control with that in mind.
 
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