Internal in external fighting systems

[vic]

Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body. Isn't that how a proper muay thai roundhouse is taught in this video? High level boxers like Ali and Mike Tyson stay relaxed and use their whole body to power their punches. Though their training is different compared to taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang, in a way they are using internal principles?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body.

This is also the principle of the external arts. IMO, while technique execution of the internal and external arts is manifested differently, at the core they are basically the same. I think the more advanced one progresses this fact becomes more evident.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Principles of internal arts include being relaxed and moving with the whole body. Isn't that how a proper muay thai roundhouse is taught in this video? High level boxers like Ali and Mike Tyson stay relaxed and use their whole body to power their punches. Though their training is different compared to taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang, in a way they are using internal principles?

That's a great video, but from a CMA perspective it's very external type of attack.

Think about it this way. What's your range, 3 feet, or 3 inches? If you've got that much range, go for it. IF not, you kick in the internal skill (nei gong). And yes, nei gong is all about the core power of the body, which drives everything. Especially the knees.

Inside boxers, the swarmers, in Tyson's case, are perfect specimens. It's hard to think of a Muay Thai example off hand, but they're out there too.

I'm kind of a Paco Muay Thai guy.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I'm not qualified to speak about the internal principles of taiji, xingyiquan or baguazhang. However I understand aspects like Kuzushi in soft arts like Judo pretty well, I also understand a decent amount about Muay Thai body kicks, as I have thrown thousands and thousands of them at this point.

I wouldn't describe it as relaxed. Certainly you want the body to generate power through a lot of swinging movement, but doing the body kick properly takes a lot of muscle control, and precision focus on many technical aspects.

If you do it enough, your body can begin to do them effortlessly, but getting their comes from extreme focus to detail, balance, positioning, follow through and many other points. To include moving your body in multiple different directions at the same time.

Perhaps I'm missing the core of what you are trying to communicate about relaxed focus?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is only the right way and the wrong way. There is no internal way and external way.

For striking art, the right way is to use your full body unification force. The wrong way is to use your partial body force (such as the arm force only).

For throwing art, the right way is to borrow force. The wrong way is to use force against force.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is only the right way and the wrong way. There is no internal way and external way.

For striking art, the right way is to use your full body unification force. The wrong way is to use your partial body force (such as the arm force only).

For throwing art, the right way is to borrow force. The wrong way is to use force against force.

I tend to generally agree, but I think these two ways are not mutually exclusive. In striking, soft force-borrowing techniques can be used to set-up and position one for the hard hit. Conversely, in throwing, a hard hit or two can facilitate the throw.

 

[Holmejr]

Define “internal”. Relaxation and proper breathing is a trait of any high level athlete in any sport. There usually isn’t anything purposely internal about it. Just excellent training.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I tend to generally agree, but I think these two ways are not mutually exclusive. In striking, soft force-borrowing techniques can be used to set-up and position one for the hard hit. Conversely, in throwing, a hard hit or two can facilitate the throw.

From a technical POV, yes.

From a historical POV, it depends.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Define “internal”. Relaxation and proper breathing is a trait of any high level athlete in any sport. There usually isn’t anything purposely internal about it. Just excellent training.

Internal means Chinese nei jia, as well as all the "external" schools that also teach Nei Gong, such as Shaolin Si. And everything derived from it.

One big flaw you see online is the duality of Shaolin Buddhism vs Daoist nei jia. Like they are chocolate and peanut butter. Two different nuts.

The truth is Shaolin Si is a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, loaded with internal and external training methods, Daoist, Buddhist.

 

[Diaitadoc]

A quote from one of my teachers that really stood out to me was “whether you cook an egg from the inside out or the outside in, you still end up with a cooked egg either way”. So at the end of the line, internal & external training systems arrive at the same place.

My interpretation of the internal/external debate changes over time, but the way I see it now is that “external” arts train specific skills & qualities in ways OTHER than live &/or simulated ways; for example, they may use weights, or exercises that are not directly representative of technique (such as push-ups or sit-ups) in order to develop certain attributes; the exercises are EXTERNAL/DETACHED from direct application & functionality.

”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.

I know, I know, this definition completely ignores “Qi” as it is generally interpreted, & these days most “external” styles do MORE live / simulated work than the “internal” ones (generally) do!

…and that’s part of the point - the “internal/external” division is not clear cut, it’s fuzzy at best, useless at worst!

If, however, we readjust our view to say that certain training METHODS are external, such as push-ups, bag drills, etc., and certain training METHODS are internal, such as partner drills, shadow boxing, forms, etc., then we can examine a specific school’s curriculum & determine whether or not that school is “more external”, “more internal” or “equally internal & external”.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Everytime I use the term "internal", I always put it into "" because I don't believe it real exists.

Some people may think if one moves slow, he is doing "internal". If one moves fast, he is doing external. The Taiji "diagnoal flay" and Chinese wrestling "advance squeeze" function exactly the same.

Taiji "diagnoal fly":

Chinese wrestling "advance squeeze":

 

[isshinryuronin]

”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.

My interpretation of the internal/external debate changes over time, but the way I see it now is that “external” arts train specific skills & qualities in ways OTHER than live &/or simulated ways; for example, they may use weights, or exercises that are not directly representative of technique (such as push-ups or sit-ups) in order to develop certain attributes; the exercises are EXTERNAL/DETACHED from direct application & functionality.

”Internal” arts train their skills & qualities strictly through live &/or simulated training; through drilling, repetition, & partnerwork. The attributes they develop are INTERNAL/ATTACHED to direct application & functionality.

I'm not sure that the "internal" arts would/do dismiss calisthenics or weight training. I am sure that traditional Okinawan "external" arts utilize these exercises (hojo undo) to "direct application & functionality" as you ascribe only to the internal arts. I think it's just a matter of each type of art customizing all these training methods to facilitate their own system's manner of technique execution.

Regarding most internal vs external issues, I think both are basically the same, only their manner or appearance of expression being different. As in your opening anecdote, the egg ends up cooked whether from the inside or out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have asked the following questions in many MA forums in the past 30 years. Today, I still have not received any answer.

What's the difference between

- "internal" punch to the face and external punch to the face?
- "internal" front kick and external front kick?
- "internal" foot sweep and external foot sweep?
- "internal" elbow lock and external elbow lock?
- "internal" hip throw and external hip throw?
- "internal" single leg and external single leg?
- ...

Is this "internal" punch, or external punch?

 

[Oily Dragon]

This guy is really to blame. Daoist martial scholar doing Daoist things.

Sun Lutang - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲(9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.

Huang Zongxi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Xue Sheng]

Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲(9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.

Huang Zongxi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 29210

Yup, The epitaph to Wang Zhengnan

The Origin of Internal Martial Arts​

Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yup, The epitaph to Wang Zhengnan

The Origin of Internal Martial Arts​

Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan​

I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?

 

[O'Malley]

As mentioned above, lack of excess tension and the use of body mass are staples of athletic activity and are not specific to internal martial arts. Therefore it's normal to find them also in muay thai.

However some of the responses in this thread suggest that the difference between internal and external is fuzzy at best. In my experience though, it is both conceptually clear and physically perceptible (when touching someone who knows what he's doing).

Internal work is a specific and demanding type of physical conditioning which aims to remove the slack from the body. You change the way your body works, which in turn produces unusual effects when people touch you. You do this through different visualizations which help you use your intent to create elastic tension in yourself. This has nothing to do with using the force of the opponent: it happens inside you, hence the term "internal". Go see Dan Harden, Sam Chin, Minoru Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, etc. They can demonstrate and explain this stuff.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I know the word "internal" was first found on a tomb stone. I don't have Adam Hsu's book with me. My memory could be wrong. Was Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲 or Wang Zhengnan?

Could be the same, just one is in Pinyin and the other in Wade-Giles

It is also possible that it was more of a political statement against the Qing... Qing outsiders, exernal, Han insiders internal.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Over 300 years ago, a non-MA scholar Huang Zongxi 黄宗羲(9/24/1610－8/12/1695) invented the term "internal". For the next 300 years, people tried to argue what it is.

Huang Zongxi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 29210

Dude was a professional soldier if I'm not mistaken, in his youth. War hero, even.

Like a lot of Daoist, Neo Confucian influenced warriors, I think that early fighting period really influenced his later work.

Another piece of the puzzle.