Interesting read concerning Bujinkan

[Don Roley]

Some Bujinkan guy in Greece (renting his training space from Kostas`and his students, that means teaching BBT in the Pammachon school in Athens) accused Kostas on a greek forum openly that what Kostas teaches now is nothing else than his own version of the Bujinkan.

That much I seem to understand. What I do not understand is why Kostas chose to try to drag Hatsumi and his accusation against him into the conversation.

If this was between Kostas and the other guy, then he should not have tried to cover himself by bringing in the matter of the Bujinkan and his thoughts about Hatsumi.

 

[Jigoku]

That much I seem to understand. What I do not understand is why Kostas chose to try to drag Hatsumi and his accusation against him into the conversation

well thats his viewpoint and related to his training history and also concerning the creation of Pammachon....
But ask him yourelf, you are in all those forums and he recently appeared on E-Budo......

Regards

Stefan

 

[Don Roley]

well thats his viewpoint and related to his training history and also concerning the creation of Pammachon....
But ask him yourelf, you are in all those forums and he recently appeared on E-Budo......

Regards

Stefan

Well, I just did even though he said he would not be responding.

Why did you try to defend his attacks on someone unrelated to the debate if you don't even know his reasons for doing things?

 

[Jigoku]

Well, I just did even though he said he would not be responding.

you dunno, so try.....


[QUOTEWhy did you try to defend his attacks on someone unrelated to the debate if you don't even know his reasons for doing things?][/QUOTE]

I tried to make the intention of the rant clear to everybody...
that`s all.....

why defending ? there is no need to........

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

why defending ? there is no need to........

I do not know about that. His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. It was a low shot and an opinon with no verifiable facts in it. So, if someone does something like that then people in any art that is so attacked would be upset. (especially since the person attacking offers no proof of his accusations)

 

[Jigoku]

His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.

I think I made it clear that Kostas rant was taken from an open greek martial arts forum and planted into the english ninjutsu/ninpo forum by an english bujinkan guy. maybe you guys who feel so threatend by a article about training experiences ask the post-transferrer what his intentions were ?
How much sense does it make to plant this post (who wasnt written for you guys) in a Ninpo section ?
I just reread the histerical reactions to the claim of the koryu people that they dont recognise bujinkan as koryu a few years ago - almost same story.....
Why not just forget about the whole thing ???
And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)

S.

 

[Kreth]

the reasons why I left are only important to me but let me make clear that I dont hold any grudge against the Bujinkan or any of its members.

And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)

Nothing against the Bujinkan, eh?

 

[Cryozombie]

And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)

S.

Damn he caught us. We picked up all our mad skillz from playing Dead or Alive on our playstations.

 

[Jigoku]

Nothing against the Bujinkan, eh?

nope......

but if you feel adressed than you might consider my suggestions

 

[Kreth]

nope......

but if you feel adressed than you might consider my suggestions

My training's just fine, how about yours (since you have free time to rant about an organization that you have nothing to do with)?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think I made it clear that Kostas rant was taken from an open greek martial arts forum and planted into the english ninjutsu/ninpo forum

Why not just forget about the whole thing ???

And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)

S.

Hey, personally I could care less what you guys are doing and I hope that your training is great.

(I truly mean that) However, maybe your instructor should think about what he is saying and writing before he puts it out there on the internet. His post was very disrepectful in the least of Hatsumi Soke. (who was one of his teachers and probably pretty important in his development as a martial artist) The fault or heat of this argument lands at his feet. (Kostas)

I can forget the whole thing.......
(because it was just someone's opinion with nothing to back up his claims)

As to the quote above about people in the Bujinkan training. Well you are just not trying to make any friends here are you. There are plenty of people who train very, very hard in Budo Taijutsu. (PLENTY)

Good luck in your training and truthfully if you guys can sort this out I would be interested in hearing about your art, rather than hearing about you bashing another art.

 

[Jigoku]

This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...

Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....

Concerning the training; I spent 20 years in the Bujinkan. So I am fully aware that there are good martial artists in the bujinkan but many are sorry to say from my viewpoint not because training is last on their list.....
I saw that everywhere in Europe (Beside Swtzerland I had students in Belgium, Germany and Austria), in the US (2002 I spent some time in California and New Mexiko training and teching) and I saw that in Japan.....

good luck in your training

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...

Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....

Concerning the training; I spent 20 years in the Bujinkan. So I am fully aware that there are good martial artists in the bujinkan but many are sorry to say from my viewpoint not because training is last on their list.....
I saw that everywhere in Europe (Beside Swtzerland I had students in Belgium, Germany and Austria), in the US (2002 I spent some time in California and New Mexiko training and teching) and I saw that in Japan.....

good luck in your training

Good luck and take care.:asian:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I truly do mean that I would be interested in hearing about Pammachon.
Maybe you could start another thread in Western Martial Arts regarding it!

 

[Koinu]

This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...

I quite agree ! Opinions are like @##***** everyone has one but should it be on public view ?

Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....

I won't thanks.

Concerning the training; I spent 20 years in the Bujinkan. So I am fully aware that there are good martial artists in the bujinkan

Well If I had 20 years invested in a Martial art I would still be training with the good ones ! In fact they would be the only ones I would be looking at as role models.

but many are sorry to say from my viewpoint not because training is last on their list.....

So these people bothered you so much that you left instead of continuing your training with the Good Martial artists within the style , Hmmm I confused , sounds like your were to !

I saw that everywhere in Europe (Beside Swtzerland I had students in Belgium, Germany and Austria), in the US (2002 I spent some time in California and New Mexiko training and teching)

Well I am sure that there are many people training for many reasons .
You get out of training what you put in so why are you so worried about the amount of effort others put in to their training ! You stated their are good Martial artist in the Bujinkan so by default they should have been your focus of you attention if we are to take you at your word about your training ethos.

and I saw that in Japan.....

There are good, bad, talented and not so talented students in every dojo and every style on earth ! Some train as a hobby some train to improve themselves as humans some for Ego and a million other reasons. I for one am glad of this, as a bunch of cloned Swiss watches would to nothing to the flavor of Soke's Budo.
I am so sorry that some of us did not live up to your expectations about why and how we should train

good luck in your training

I have never needed luck in my training thanks. Just the desire to continue to train with good people and results will take care of themselves .
Good luck with your Mountain climbing !

 

[lalom]

I do not know about that. His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. It was a low shot and an opinon with no verifiable facts in it. So, if someone does something like that then people in any art that is so attacked would be upset. (especially since the person attacking offers no proof of his accusations)

Was this an opinion? Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there? Just a question for my understanding. But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?

 

[Koinu]

Was this an opinion? Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there? Just a question for my understanding. But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?

If there are any LEO's on here I am sure that they will tell you when you are investigating an incident and talking to 10 witnesses you will get 10 versions of the same event. So it matters not if he were there it is STILL only his opinion of what he thinks went on !!!

Ps sorry for the errors in my post above I was trying to post while playing with my 3 month old and can't find the edit button.

 

[heretic888]

Was this an opinion? Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there? Just a question for my understanding. But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?

Much of the claims the individual in question made lacked supporting evidence, actually. One of the stronger accusations made was that Hatsumi was "making up" the ryuha kata as we went along to keep his Western students. In other words, that they were not from the densho and kuden he inherited from Takamatsu.

However, it should be pointed out that absolutely no evidence was given in support of this and, as the author pointed out, he never learned the ryuha kata so it was just an assumption on his part. In fact, his reasoning seemed to be purely self-serving and self-promoting on this point in that his rationale for Hatsumi "making up" the ryuha kata was that he already learned all Hatsumi "had to offer" in the martial arts.

Point in fact, if Hatsumi was not making up the ryuha kata then the author had, in fact, not learned everything had to offer in budo. So, it is important the author keeps this impression afloat, even if he has zero evidence to support it (unless you consider subjectivity to be "evidence" these days).

It needn't be pointed out that, even from an outsider's view, the author's ego is palpable here.

Laterz.

 

[kuoshu]

First of all, I have not "bashed" the Bujinkan. I've said repeatedly that my problem is with the claimed history of the "ninja" schools. I've gone out of my way on forums like eBudo to stress that this does not mean the arts are ineffective or have no value.

My, my. Aren't we demanding? If the guy is a historian of Japanese budo and studies a Koryu, one would HOPE that he OCCASIONALLY goes to Japan. If he is unwilling to spend $30 on train fare during one of these trips in order to "resolve his issues with ninjutsu," then that's his choice. I needn't pay for his trip in order to facilitate his viewing of the documents of interest. Sorry, Paul. You make it sound like I demanded that he fly out that week to resolve things to my satisfaction.

I was merely trying to facilitate accessing information to resolve his uncertainty on the subject; Dr. Friday demurred. One would think that a scholar of Budo would jump at the chance to see rarely viewed materials; for all he knows, they *COULD BE* authentic!!! Alas, Dr. Friday said that he wasn't interested in the subject matter. End of story.

Look at it from Dr Friday's point of view. Mr Hatsumi's evidence had already been assessed by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and/or Shinkokain when he tried to gain admission. The experts on those organisations did not believe his evidence. Therefore what could Dr Friday expect to find that these evaluators couldn't? He was probably humble enough to admit that if Japanese experts in authenticating schools had already rejected the proof in the 60s or 70s, and they knew more than he does, then he could not expect to find anything that they couldn't.

Paul

 

[kuoshu]

I am certain that Chuck would be interested in seeing where Hatsumi-sensei is in his development, just as Hatsumi-sensei would be interested in seeing how Chuck has developed. In the end, we're all climbing the same mountain, you know.

I am genuinely impressed to see you saying this, because I have never seen you say something as generous about the other men who've left Mr Hatsumi and teach their own systems. Do you also feel that the Jinenkan, Toshindo and whatever Alex Mordine is now teaching are also climbing the same mountain as the Bujinkan?

Paul