Interesting group of practitioners
- Thread starter opr1945
- Start date
Does anybody know the purpose of this kind of training?
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Is there any point or purpose you have for posting this? Do you have an opinion re: clip? Does it relate to some other post?
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
It seems like he wants to talk about their rank. Were it not for the caption, I'd assume he was a Uechi-ryu guy simply taking interest in a kata from another style.Is there any point or purpose you have for posting this? Do you have an opinion re: clip? Does it relate to some other post?
OP
OP
opr1945
Black Belt
I guess that old timers see things like this all the time so it is run of the mill. At my Dojo there is 1 tenth degree 2 seventh degrees and several black belts ( 1-5 dan just wear black b elt no stripes. I was reading an article with a link to this video. The article was discussing ranks emblems in different styles. And said 10th degree was red. 9th degree was red and white. So I just found it interesting. No particular agenda in posting it.
"Is there any point or purpose you have for posting this? Do you have an opinion re: clip? Does it relate to some other post?" Is this the requirement for a post?
Seems, to me, the post on square wheels is less related to Karate than masters doing kata?
"Is there any point or purpose you have for posting this? Do you have an opinion re: clip? Does it relate to some other post?" Is this the requirement for a post?
Seems, to me, the post on square wheels is less related to Karate than masters doing kata?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I always find it interesting to show people skills that rely on opinions without context. Because there is quite often a disconnect.
Basically I have not found a consistent link between observing kata, shadow boxing, gun drills, knife drills.)All those things that require you to make an guess based on looks)
And the ability to perform that task.
Basically I have not found a consistent link between observing kata, shadow boxing, gun drills, knife drills.)All those things that require you to make an guess based on looks)
And the ability to perform that task.
Rumble, young man, rumble.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
I'll put a little context to the video clip:
8th dan usually also have red-white belt, sometimes 7th as well. 9th dans usually can also wear red. It varies by the system/organization. It's a safe bet to say the guys pictured in the video did not promote themselves or have red on their belts simply due to organizational politics as often found in the West. Many of the red and red/white belts (of various styles) in Okinawa are well acquainted with each other and share their knowledge. The clip may, in part, be an example of this.
By the way, the lead sensei in the middle in Zenpo Shimamukuro, head of seibukan shorinryu karate. He is regarded as one of the most respected karate masters on Okinawa. His father, Zenryo, studied with Chotoku Kyan (who studied with the legendary "Bushi" Matsumura}. As isshinryu founder Tatsuo Shimabuku also studied with Kyan, some of the kata are very similar.
OP
OP
opr1945
Black Belt
isshinryuronin
thank you very much for context. Interesting/educational.
OP
OP
opr1945
Black Belt
Further information: I am participating at a Dojo the practices Uechi-ryu Karate.
There are ten beginner or Kyū ranks
These are the ten black belt or Dan grades:
So in total there are only 4 visible Black Belts. All black and then progress through 3 gold stripes with 8-10 Dan 3 gold stripes. Not as many colors as some styles). So I found the red (black Belt) interesting.
There are ten beginner or Kyū ranks
- 10º Jukyū (White Belt)
- 9º Kyukyū (Yellow Belt)
- 8º Hachikyū (Yellow Belt w/1 white stripe)
- 7º Shichikyū (Yellow Belt w/2 White stripes)
- 6º Rokkyū (Green Belt )
- 5º Gokyū (Green Belt w/1 White Stripe)
- 4º Yonkyū (Green Belt w/2 White Stripes)
- 3º Sankyū (Brown Belt)
- 2º Nikyū (Brown Belt w/1 Black Stripes)
- 1º Ikkyū (Brown Belt w/2 Black Stripes)
These are the ten black belt or Dan grades:
- Shodan (1st degree | Regular Black belt)
- Nidan (2nd degree)
- Sandan (3rd degree)
- Yondan (4th degree)
- Godan (5th degree)
- Rokudan (6th degree) (Master's title: Renshi; Black belt w/1 Gold stripe)
- Nanadan (7th degree) (Master's title: Kyōshi; Black belt w/2 Gold stripes)
- Hachidan (8th degree) (Master's title: Kyōshi; Black belt w/3 Gold stripes)
- Kyūdan (9th degree) (Master's title: Hanshi; Black belt w/3 Gold stripes)
- Jūdan (10th degree) (Master's title: Hanshi; Black belt w/3 Gold stripes)
So in total there are only 4 visible Black Belts. All black and then progress through 3 gold stripes with 8-10 Dan 3 gold stripes. Not as many colors as some styles). So I found the red (black Belt) interesting.
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
CORRECTION: I just noticed a typo. Zenpo's last name is Shimabukuro. I asked my sensei if he was related to isshinryu's Tatsuo Shimabuku (some branches of family use different forms of name). He replied, "It's Okinawa. A lot of people are related in some way or another."
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
The use of gold stripes to denote shogo titles depends on the style. Some styles have the titles (which basically are levels of instructor expertise), but do not use the gold stripes, simply awarding a certificate. Before adopting the dan system of the Japanese post WWII, the shogo system was the way to imply black belt rank in Okinawa. Goju founder Miyagi was the first kyoshi in 1937. In those days and later, a committee made up of the top masters (representing the various styles on the island) awarded such titles and 10th degrees.
It must be noted that the shogo titles are independent of rank. The title does not come automatically with any dan. It is awarded separately. There is some relationship though. Depending on style, renshi can be awarded to 4th, 5th, or 6th degrees, kyoshi to 6th or 7th (maybe 8th?) and hanshi to 8th or 9th. There are usually also a minimum number of years in the art or shogo level required.
OP
OP
opr1945
Black Belt
Wait a minute... Titles are seperate from Dan Rank??? and can be awarded to different ranks? This is getting confusing. Hard enough to figure out someones rank (especially with only 4 visable belt for 10 ranks), now you have to figure out title as well?
But thanks for the information.
But thanks for the information.
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Yes, it is a little confusing, a result of one system being overlaid atop another. I somewhat carelessly referred to renshi, kyoshi and hanshi being titles, but they're really not. They should not be used as forms of address such as "Renshi Smith." They are more like recognition awards for outstanding performance and teaching skills. They are of little concern nowadays to anyone except the recipients, so you don't have to worry about them - at least for the next fifteen years or so if you work hard.
I’ve been told that by someone who trained under them, or one of them, I don’t know or remember. It was always confusing to me. Both then and now.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Depends on the association. The association to which the Shorin-ryu dojo that I trained at belonged assigned shogo titles to grades. Same as what opr1945 listed, only godan is renshi too.
Renshi wore this belt:
While kyoshi wore the candy cane belt, and hanshi wore the red belt.
Your explanation matches mine precisely. My sensei is 9th Dan Hanshi. He wears a red belt for ceremonial purposes when asked.
He also states as you do that 3 stripes on a black belt in Okinawa is not the same as some American styles of denoting dan status with stripes. 3 stripes in Okinawa is not 3rd Dan. It's led to a bit of confusion at times.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Oh well, there are a lot of instructors/breakaway associations, etc. that do not understand shogo and just make up their own thing or just misinterpret it. Doesn't mean it's correct. For example, I can spell "associations" assoshiashunz within my particular group and tell them that's the way it's supposed to be. To someone who knows the proper spelling it will appear weird. But, hey, it's the 21st century and anything goes.Depends on the association. The association to which the Shorin-ryu dojo that I trained at belonged assigned shogo titles to grades. Same as what opr1945 listed, only godan is renshi too.
Renshi wore this belt:
While kyoshi wore the candy cane belt, and hanshi wore the red belt.
If they are just automatically attached to a dan, what purpose do they serve other than give a reason for getting a spiffy belt with some red on it? It could be construed as simply optics and ego.
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