Instructors, how do you defend against Sensei Seths side kick criticism?

paitingman

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Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.
Idk. I still wouldn't call this horizontal chamber. It's more 45, but it's still fairly vertical.
Step one: 45 degree chamber. Step two: keep that chamber and lean back.

I admire the skill in the video, and call me old fashioned, but I'd classify it as more dance move than side kick
 
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Fair. Need was the wrong word. In general that is what I've found hold true for me though-if I want a higher kick, a higher/more vertical chamber helps with that. YMMV, particularly in a system more dedicated to kicks and flexibility overall.

Yes but in the case of a very high, high side kick, you have to chamber it vertically, otherwise you are mostly kicking with your calf because your knee isn't parallell with the leg.
 
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Which is basically what he says in the video. He doesn't say one is better than the other, just what he prefers. And (IIRC) he stated exactly that if you want to kick higher, you'll need a more vertical chamber.

he absolutely states in other videos that the vertical makes little sense to him.
 
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It's a bit strange why he would label it TKD. It seems Karate's basic chamber is the same..
 

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I completely disagree.

For example, here's a super-short video of a Korean lady demonstrating a vertical sidekick, and the step 1 is a mostly-horizontal chamber.

Incredible hip flexibility.
Believe it or not, there was TKD long before WT/Kukkiwon. Citing chapter and verse of one derivative can be misleading.
I know by WT/Kukki standards that is a side kick. They have morphed over the years since some TKD gravitated towards highlighting the ridiculously high kicks in Poomsae. And the fighting kicks have changed quite a lot. FWIW, I am a Long time TKD guy.
The simplest way I know to describe it is by the main muscle group used. A side kick gets most of it's power from the glutes. A roundhouse gets most of it's power from the quad. The kick in the video uses mostly the quad. So, by your standard it that acceptable?
Regardless, it ends up in a very nice side kick position. Something we would still be critical of.
 
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Tez3

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It's a bit strange why he would label it TKD. It seems Karate's basic chamber is the same..



If the chamber in karate "is the same" as TKD why wouldn't he label it as TKD?
You are posting only to bump up your post count.
 
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If the chamber in karate "is the same" as TKD why wouldn't he label it as TKD?
You are posting only to bump up your post count.

For the reason that it is not unique to TKD
 

Tez3

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For the reason that it is not unique to TKD

If he only trains TKD how would he know that it's used in other styles? He describes what he knows. You on the other hand are nit picking, always a mean trait.
 
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If he only trains TKD how would he know that it's used in other styles? He describes what he knows. You on the other hand are nit picking, always a mean trait.

He doesn't. He is from Kempo karate
 

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A technique is "taught" in a certain way to white belts and other people in the beginner phase a certain way, so they develop certain things from that training which will continue on. Some of those things are "training wheels" so to speak. Probably necessary in the beginning, to get started... but once a modicum of competency is reached, they can be set aside. Simplest explanation I can give. Actually, I thought this would be obvious, but perhaps the schools involved don't ever talk about their actual pedagogy. In my opinion, that would be a failing in and for the instructors as a group.

"Pedagogy" -- (noun): The method and practice of teaching, especially as an academic subject or theoretical concept.
 

andyjeffries

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Incredible hip flexibility.
Believe it or not, there was TKD long before WT/Kukkiwon. Citing chapter and verse of one derivative can be misleading.

I agree. There was also a network of computers before the internet, but really we currently only discuss modern standards now unless we're talking in a historical context ;-)

However, I was using that video just to demonstrate how Kukkiwon standards are currently a horizontal chamber rather than vertical.

I know by WT/Kukki standards that is a side kick. They have morphed over the years since some TKD gravitated towards highlighting the ridiculously high kicks in Poomsae. And the fighting kicks have changed quite a lot. FWIW, I am a Long time TKD guy.

Don't know how you define "Long time", but I guess I probably am too :)

I like to stay "current" with standards, learning from as senior sources as I can to try to truly understand it.

The simplest way I know to describe it is by the main muscle group used. A side kick gets most of it's power from the glutes. A roundhouse gets most of it's power from the quad. The kick in the video uses mostly the quad. So, by your standard it that acceptable?

I personally wouldn't say a side kick gets most of its power from the glutes. I'd say it's a 50:50 quad and glute power delivery. A back kick, hook kick or back hook kick, sure, they're glute-focused.

So by my standards, that is an acceptable kick.

However, as I stated above, I posted it purely to discuss the chamber as it relates to this thread, rather than the end position.

Regardless, it ends up in a very nice side kick position. Something we would still be critical of.

I agree on both points. If I was judging her in competition, I'd mark her down for not being towards a valid target ;-)
 

andyjeffries

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Yes but in the case of a very high, high side kick, you have to chamber it vertically, otherwise you are mostly kicking with your calf because your knee isn't parallell with the leg.

I disagree, I don't know how much higher you want it, but that lady did a vertical side kick and didn't chamber it vertically.
 

andyjeffries

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The side kick after the chamber in that video seems weird to me. The way I was taught was more like this:


That's definitely not how I was taught and seems weird to me. The only Kukkiwon instructor* I know that kicks or advocates kicking like that is Grandmaster Kang, Ik-pil. He's a very influential grandmaster, very senior, published author on poomsae and a nice guy - I've been to his dojang a couple of times, interviewed him for my YouTube channel, etc. However, he's the only one I've seen that teaches this way over the "Kukkiwon standard" way.

* By Kukkiwon instructor I mean someone paid by the Kukkiwon to teach on official Kukkiwon courses, rather than just a Taekwondo instructor that teaches Kukkiwon Taekwondo.
 

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That's definitely not how I was taught and seems weird to me. The only Kukkiwon instructor* I know that kicks or advocates kicking like that is Grandmaster Kang, Ik-pil. He's a very influential grandmaster, very senior, published author on poomsae and a nice guy - I've been to his dojang a couple of times, interviewed him for my YouTube channel, etc. However, he's the only one I've seen that teaches this way over the "Kukkiwon standard" way.

* By Kukkiwon instructor I mean someone paid by the Kukkiwon to teach on official Kukkiwon courses, rather than just a Taekwondo instructor that teaches Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

That's how I do my side kicks for speed. Compared to a front kick, it helps get your head out of the way better, and it sets you up to follow up with a turning kick better. It's not something I was ever taught, though, just something I figured out on my own.
 

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