Instructor Camps

[MJS]

2 day/8hrs per day, 1 week/8hrs per day...these are a few examples of the instructor courses that are out there. You go to this camp/course, get intensive training in X art, and when all is said and done, you're certified to teach this to others.

So..if its that easy, why train for 20yrs? I mean, if its really that simple....if all one needs to do is train for 16hrs or 40hrs and you can walk away with the credentials to teach this stuff, you'd figure that everyone would be doing it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into it. I mean, I've been doing Kenpo now for over 20yrs and I'm still learning, fine tuning things, etc. Now, maybe I just don't fully understand those types of courses, and perhaps you still need to get more training in X art, but you have people paying some good money I'm sure, and possibly teaching something that they themselves really don't have a full understanding in.

So, what are your thoughts on these courses? Are they worth it? Are you really going to learn anything? Has anyone had any experience with them?

 

[Kacey]

If all you're doing is training the same things you've been training all along... then no, I don't think it's worth it. However, I am going to one in August that will be teaching how to teach, how to open and maintain a school, how to recruit students, things that an instructor must do that a student doesn't. That is, I think, much more of what an instructor's camp or seminar should be.

 

[jks9199]

2 day/8hrs per day, 1 week/8hrs per day...these are a few examples of the instructor courses that are out there. You go to this camp/course, get intensive training in X art, and when all is said and done, you're certified to teach this to others.

So..if its that easy, why train for 20yrs? I mean, if its really that simple....if all one needs to do is train for 16hrs or 40hrs and you can walk away with the credentials to teach this stuff, you'd figure that everyone would be doing it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into it. I mean, I've been doing Kenpo now for over 20yrs and I'm still learning, fine tuning things, etc. Now, maybe I just don't fully understand those types of courses, and perhaps you still need to get more training in X art, but you have people paying some good money I'm sure, and possibly teaching something that they themselves really don't have a full understanding in.

So, what are your thoughts on these courses? Are they worth it? Are you really going to learn anything? Has anyone had any experience with them?

I could see it for a specific skill set, like a staff form, or particular sort of weapon, or a kickboxing coaching camp... Things along those lines. But to learn an entirely new system from scratch to instructor in a week -- let alone a weekend... Nope.

'Cause we all know how camps/seminars tend to run... If it starts at 7 AM on paper, it's really 8:30 or 9:00 by the time everyone's there, signed in, and getting rolling... then a 2 hour break for lunch... and so on...

 

[girlbug2]

Do these camps really claim to teach an entire art in that short time? Then it couldn't be anything but a scam.

I will have to google some examples of this for myself.

 

[tellner]

I've had good look with these for specific limited skill sets like Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 or Modern Warrior's Environmental program. For a comprehensive program with a lot of depth it just doesn't work. For a complete martial art? That wouldn't be Tae Kwon Do. It would be Take My Dough.

 

[KenpoTex]

I think the...I guess credibility (?) of these things really depends on the type of course.
Some teach you the entire "system" and say "now you're an instructor, go make money for us." Personally, I'm kind of leery of these types of things. The only exceptions might be things like those Tellner listed; specific programs or skillsets that are similar or related to things you're already proficient in or things you're already qualified to teach.

Others programs require you to already be proficient in the system. In such cases, the purpose of the camp/seminar is to evaluate your competancy and to familiarize you with their teaching method...more of an instructor development course as opposed to a "crash course." If you meet their standards, you're given the official "go ahead" to represent the system as an instructor. I have no problem with this type of process because you already know what you're doing.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

2 day/8hrs per day, 1 week/8hrs per day...these are a few examples of the instructor courses that are out there. You go to this camp/course, get intensive training in X art, and when all is said and done, you're certified to teach this to others.

So..if its that easy, why train for 20yrs? I mean, if its really that simple....if all one needs to do is train for 16hrs or 40hrs and you can walk away with the credentials to teach this stuff, you'd figure that everyone would be doing it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into it. I mean, I've been doing Kenpo now for over 20yrs and I'm still learning, fine tuning things, etc. Now, maybe I just don't fully understand those types of courses, and perhaps you still need to get more training in X art, but you have people paying some good money I'm sure, and possibly teaching something that they themselves really don't have a full understanding in.

So, what are your thoughts on these courses? Are they worth it? Are you really going to learn anything? Has anyone had any experience with them?

Mike I find it laughable and really fraudulent that anyone can become an instructor in a weekend or a week in a specific system. What that tells me in truth is that:

a. The system is not very dynamic or has that many variations
b. Somebody is out to make a buck

I remember learning defensive tactics at an LEO training session one time where the defensive tactics instructor had roughly a day and also a weekend experience under his belt. It was his first time ever teaching it and it showed. Needless to say he was better than most of the people he was teaching but his overall knowledge was incredibly limited.

What has happened is that people have realized that the vast majority of potential students out there do not want to invest heavily in their personal protection skills. So a weekend course is just dandy for your average person. Now add on an instructor in say ATA or any art for that matter (just an example) and they want to market themselves as the real deal so now they can take a weekend Krav Maga course or a weekend BJJ (just two examples) course and now become an instructor. So they go off teaching something that they know just a little about and walla the public or John Q get the feeling that they are learning the real deal but in reality they are just learning a snip it of it.

This has been going on for a long time in the Defensive Tactics world and now it is in the martial arts world big time. In the end it is all about empire building and flooding the pockets of the group doing the certifying.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think the...I guess credibility (?) of these things really depends on the type of course.
Some teach you the entire "system" and say "now you're an instructor, go make money for us." Personally, I'm kind of leery of these types of things. The only exceptions might be things like those Tellner listed; specific programs or skillsets that are similar or related to things you're already proficient in or things you're already qualified to teach.

Others programs require you to already be proficient in the system. In such cases, the purpose of the camp/seminar is to evaluate your competancy and to familiarize you with their teaching method...more of an instructor development course as opposed to a "crash course." If you meet their standards, you're given the official "go ahead" to represent the system as an instructor. I have no problem with this type of process because you already know what you're doing.

I can definately agree with the later though I wonder why the skill set is not being introduced in regular training. Oh yes it is back to the money.

 

[Drac]

2 day/8hrs per day, 1 week/8hrs per day...these are a few examples of the instructor courses that are out there. You go to this camp/course, get intensive training in X art, and when all is said and done, you're certified to teach this to others.

So..if its that easy, why train for 20yrs? I mean, if its really that simple....if all one needs to do is train for 16hrs or 40hrs and you can walk away with the credentials to teach this stuff, you'd figure that everyone would be doing it.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into it. I mean, I've been doing Kenpo now for over 20yrs and I'm still learning, fine tuning things, etc. Now, maybe I just don't fully understand those types of courses, and perhaps you still need to get more training in X art, but you have people paying some good money I'm sure, and possibly teaching something that they themselves really don't have a full understanding in.

So, what are your thoughts on these courses? Are they worth it? Are you really going to learn anything? Has anyone had any experience with them?

I hear ya..In order to teach at the police academy you must attend 2 week long classes as mandated by the State..The first week ya learn how to teach adults..The 2nd week is done at the State Academy where ya learn to teach techniques THEIR WAY...

 

[jks9199]

I hear ya..In order to teach at the police academy you must attend 2 week long classes as mandated by the State..The first week ya learn how to teach adults..The 2nd week is done at the State Academy where ya learn to teach techniques THEIR WAY...

Virginia does it similarly; a week long "instructor development" class/workshop, then 4 hours apprenticeship (supervised training, where you conduct the class under the supervision of an experienced instructor), then if you want to teach some topics (DT, EVOC, Firearms, etc) that are higher liability, you get a separate class in that -- which is usually 2 weeks (or more). One week "how to teach", one week teaching it.

 

[Drac]

One week "how to teach", one week teaching it.

Yep..My only saving graces was the head instructor is a former karateka,so we spoke the same language..I was the oldest and heaviest "student" in that class, and the only one with a serious backround in MA...Surprized a few of the youngsters who thought they could take a fat gray haired guy..

 

[thetruth]

I'm actually doing a course starting this Friday with Jim Wagner. He does not claim to teach an entire system in the same way a style of karate would. There are no forms to learn, there are not hundreds of techniques and drills to learn and if you rocked up with no prior knowledge I'm quite sure you would not get certified. People assume all of these courses teach an entire system in 5 days which is incorrect in alot of cases. If it takes a week(the physical part as mentioned above) to become a defensive tactics instructor for the police why are all of the courses that are out there looked upon poorly when the people who will benefit from them are civilians and not cops? I spent 7 years with my last instructor and such was my disdain with him when I left I took a blow torch to my certificates. I will NEVER use his name in promoting anything I do and I'm not arrogant enough to start my own 'style' or any such thing. I want to teach self defense and Jim Wagners course was of similar cost to others but there were no ongoing costs to be affiliated etc. He also seems to be reasonably well respected from what I have read.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I'll post my thoughts after the course.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm actually doing a course starting this Friday with Jim Wagner. He does not claim to teach an entire system in the same way a style of karate would. There are no forms to learn, there are not hundreds of techniques and drills to learn and if you rocked up with no prior knowledge I'm quite sure you would not get certified. People assume all of these courses teach an entire system in 5 days which is incorrect in alot of cases. If it takes a week(the physical part as mentioned above) to become a defensive tactics instructor for the police why are all of the courses that are out there looked upon poorly when the people who will benefit from them are civilians and not cops? I spent 7 years with my last instructor and such was my disdain with him when I left I took a blow torch to my certificates. I will NEVER use his name in promoting anything I do and I'm not arrogant enough to start my own 'style' or any such thing. I want to teach self defense and Jim Wagners course was of similar cost to others but there were no ongoing costs to be affiliated etc. He also seems to be reasonably well respected from what I have read.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I'll post my thoughts after the course.

Sam

I think you will find that most people will tell you that a week or weekend to become a defensive tactics instructor is limited as well. The best Defensive Tactics instructors I know had serious practice outside of their week or weekend course. That at least gives them some depth of knowledge. Truthfuly most of their skill sets were gained with the outside training. Still every week or weekend course that I have heard of where certification occurs is well money driven. As to Jim Wagner he has a good name in some areas and a not so good name in others. Just my 02.

 

[MJS]

If all you're doing is training the same things you've been training all along... then no, I don't think it's worth it. However, I am going to one in August that will be teaching how to teach, how to open and maintain a school, how to recruit students, things that an instructor must do that a student doesn't. That is, I think, much more of what an instructor's camp or seminar should be.

I'm talking more of the ones along the lines in which the person has no background or a very limited background in X art. They go for the required time, and walk out with 'credentials' to teach.

 

[MJS]

I could see it for a specific skill set, like a staff form, or particular sort of weapon, or a kickboxing coaching camp... Things along those lines. But to learn an entirely new system from scratch to instructor in a week -- let alone a weekend... Nope.

Agreed.

'Cause we all know how camps/seminars tend to run... If it starts at 7 AM on paper, it's really 8:30 or 9:00 by the time everyone's there, signed in, and getting rolling... then a 2 hour break for lunch... and so on...

Perhaps camp was the wrong word. For example...at the end of this month, I'm attending the Arnis Summer camp that my group hosts. Its basically a 3 day seminar. What it is not...its not something that you can go to for those 3 days, and walk out of with a Black Belt. Sure, people do test for rank, but again, its not something where people are going to leave with a piece of paper stating that they're qualified to teach after those 3 days.

 

[jks9199]

If it takes a week(the physical part as mentioned above) to become a defensive tactics instructor for the police why are all of the courses that are out there looked upon poorly when the people who will benefit from them are civilians and not cops?

Sam

I think you will find that most people will tell you that a week or weekend to become a defensive tactics instructor is limited as well. The best Defensive Tactics instructors I know had serious practice outside of their week or weekend course. That at least gives them some depth of knowledge. Truthfuly most of their skill sets were gained with the outside training.

A week long instructor certification in Defensive Tactics is just that; it's a week focused on the teaching methods to rapidly put some very basic, very direct skills in the hands of people who will need them. It's not teaching a martial art; it's not even really trying to teach most of the techniques. Most courses will standardize the methods -- but assume basic knowledge and skill in performing the basic techniques. Many times, separate certification and training is required in specific skills over and above those basics, like pressure point control techniques or using OC. Nobody makes any claims of depth; DT is simple and basic.

Someone who attends a weekend -- or even a week long -- martial arts seminar, and walks away with a "instructorship certification" is unlikely to have acquired more than a superficial understanding of that system, unless they have trained it for several years, and the "certification course" was really simply an examination for certification.

 

[MJS]

A few posts caught my eye, specifically the ones from Drac, jks and thetruth. Brian summed it up very good IMO. I don't think that they're going to take a newbie, fresh from the police academy, and throw him into a firearms inst. position. I could see a more seasoned officer, one who already knows how to shoot, so now this course, turns into more of a teach the teacher, so to speak.

The weekend course with Jim Wagner...now, is it right for someone with no martial arts training, limited MA training or alot of MA training, to go to something, learn the surface material and walk out with paper saying that you can teach it? How well do you really know the material? Would you have a 3 month white belt teach a brand new white belt how to punch? I know I wouldn't.

So, if one is going to go to a seminar, where again, you're just scratching the surface of the material, why would you claim that you know enough to teach? A few months ago, I went to a day long seminar which featured Arnis, Pressure points, and Small Circle Jujitsu. Would it be right of me to run out and start teaching pressure points?

Would I go to a 3 day or week long event with Jim Wanger? Sure. I've read good and bad about the guy, but I'd like to form my own opinion. So, I'd go, try to learn what he was teaching, leave and practice the stuff. What I would not do is start teaching it to people.

If someone bills their event as an "Intensive Instructors Course" I take that as them teaching you to become instructors. If thats not the case, then its false advertising IMO. So, you have X number of people that pay X number of dollars, to go, train and leave as teachers. I'm wondering how this can happen?

 

[Drac]

I attended a week long course put on by Controlled F.O.R.C.E..Not bad stuff , but the Instructors started out by claiming that ALL MA training was ********..There were 4 very seasoned MA in theat class unknow to them, one officer fought in the Police Olympics (karate) and was undefreated for 3 years...One of the others was totally lost, he attended cause his Chief sent him...

 

[stickarts]

I have been to a camp where you can walk in with very little experience and walk away 3 days later with a basic instructor certificate. There was no extra charge involved so it wasn't about the (immediate) money but I got the feeling that the purpose was to start getting as many instructors out there as possible to spread the art which I guess would also help future camp and seminar attendance. I think that it did somewhat succeed in doing that although you do have to wonder about the quality of instruction that was occurring by many of the new "instructors"
Another benefit was that it was a way to remember the material by immediately teaching it after you leave the camp.
I made the mistake once of trying to teach something i wasn't well versed in myself and I have always made sure since then to have a good handle on material before I teach it.

 

[tellner]

I attended a week long course put on by Controlled F.O.R.C.E..Not bad stuff , but the Instructors started out by claiming that ALL MA training was ********..There were 4 very seasoned MA in theat class unknow to them

I've seen that sort of thing turn ugly, sometimes in very amusing ways, when people in the audience take offense.