Insights into Kenpo and Groundfighting

[Seig]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
There has been a LOT of discussion both pro and con concerning this topic. Some really want to discuss it and others want to avoid it. What we, the moderation team, are asking is that you keep the discussion about this topic restricted to this thread. We realize that on occasion that this will surface in other threads. Please make an effort to redirect all such discussions here.
Thank you,
Michael Seigel
MT Moderator

 

[MJS]

Yes, there certainly has been alot about this. I realize that we all come from different backgrounds, so of course, our training is going to vary from person to person. From what I have seen in Kenpo, it does offer tech against your standing grappling, as well as attempts at a tackle or takedown. This is fine of course, if you are successful in stopping it. If you are not, what is there to do? I know people have said that they can modify a tech. on the ground. Something to keep in mind though. If someone is on you, they of course are not just going to be sitting there, instead they are going to be punching at you or possibly going for a submission, which could turn into an armbreak, etc.

My question is: I'd like some examples of what others do when they find themselves in this situation, and were the attempts at the Kenpo tech. effective?

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kenpo techniques work great against untrained or unexpectant fighters either standing or on the ground. If a fighter isn't prepared to defend against a groin kick or an eye strike, then a kenpoist will probably be able to successfully execute those strikes.

It is against a trained fighter with good defenses either standing or on the ground where a Kenpoist or any other fighter runs into trouble. Kenpoists can often succeed agianst trained stand-up fighters because Kenpo IS a highly effective stand-up style. On the ground though, against a really good wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player, a Kenpoist would find himself unable to gain an advantageous position from which to strike.

That being said, it behooves Kenpoists to learn basic grappling positions and escapes so that the Kenpoist can regain the stand-up, regain the top, or at least gain enough space from which to strike effectively.

 

[MJS]

I agree!!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I thought you would agree!

 

[twinkletoes]

I agree too but you guys knew that already.

And here we are.....just the 3 of us. But we already know all this stuff......

~TT

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Hmmm...just the three of us....twidling my thumbs...tapping my pencil...OK, time to start trolling the other threads...

 

[MJS]

Yeah, just the 3 of us--I noticed that too. Its a shame that we can't get the people who claim to have made their Kenpo tech. work on the ground in here to give a little feedback. I'm hoping that someone will jump in, but, as much as I hate to say it, I'm probably just dreaming.

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

Come one!!!!!!!! I want to be apart too!!!!!! OPPS I dont count
because Ive learned my ground fighting outside of Kenpo!!!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Come one!!!!!!!! I want to be apart too!!!!!! OPPS I dont count
because Ive learned my ground fighting outside of Kenpo!!!

LOL!!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Fastmover: You can come too. After all, their were four members of the three musketeers!

 

[MJS]

I was really hoping to get some feedback on this from some of the die-hard Kenpo guys, but I guess they are not interested in the conversation. Its a shame really, because there has been sooo much talk about this, with many voicing negative opinions. It amazes me as how someone can talk so bad about something, but then can't at least offer any feedback!

Mike

 

[satans.barber]

Are we talking about self-defence or competition here? If it's competition then yeah, I can see how a kenpo guy/gal would struggle against a BJJ player for example, but in self-defence I think the chances of coming up against someone using that sort of training are pretty slim.

For a start, they're probably of a similar mentality, and realise that avoiding conflict is the best way to go I would think. I don't think the sorts of people who start fights in pubs or mug people are the sorts of people taking Jiu Jitsu of a Wednesday evening down the Church Hall....

...could be wrong though....

Ian.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by satans.barber
Are we talking about self-defence or competition here? If it's competition then yeah, I can see how a kenpo guy/gal would struggle against a BJJ player for example, but in self-defence I think the chances of coming up against someone using that sort of training are pretty slim.

For a start, they're probably of a similar mentality, and realise that avoiding conflict is the best way to go I would think. I don't think the sorts of people who start fights in pubs or mug people are the sorts of people taking Jiu Jitsu of a Wednesday evening down the Church Hall....

...could be wrong though....

Ian.

As far as competition goes--if you are talking about NHB style fights, well, as you know, in the first few UFC events, the strikers didnt do that well agaisnt the grappler. As time went on, you found the strikers working with grapplers to learn the secrets. Now, when you see a striker who can grapple and a grappler that can strike, it comes down to who is better skilled.

As for SD. Alot of the SD that are done in Kenpo, are done on a stationary opp. with little or no resistance. I find it hard to believe that someone who throws a punch is going to stand there and let you do 8 moves on him, and not try to fight back!!!!

You would think that the person taking the MA's, would not be the ones to start trouble, but then again, you never know--there are bad MA's out there too. It doenst even have to be a matter of getting attacked by a grappler. If, while you are attempting to defend yourself, you find yourself on the ground, the question is, are you going to know what to do to either:

A- Defend yourself on the ground or

B- know enough about the ground to get back to your feet.

Like I have said before, while Kenpo offers many defenses against a tackle or attempted takedown, I have yet to see any defense when they are actually on the ground.

Mike

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by MJS
As for SD. Alot of the SD that are done in Kenpo, are done on a stationary opp. with little or no resistance. I find it hard to believe that someone who throws a punch is going to stand there and let you do 8 moves on him, and not try to fight back!!!!

I entirely agree with you, but I didn't think that was the issue here. What I read was, if a kenpo guy ends up on his back, he may be in trouble if his attacker has ground fighting experience - true, but, i was just saying I think the likelyhood of the attacker having that experience is pretty slim.

the question is, are you going to know what to do to either:

A- Defend yourself on the ground or

B- know enough about the ground to get back to your feet.

Probably not, no! Not having any mats at the school, I can't really practice this either without getting people hurt.

Like I have said before, while Kenpo offers many defenses against a tackle or attempted takedown, I have yet to see any defense when they are actually on the ground.

'Encounter With Danger' and 'Rolling Thunder (AKKI)' are the only two that spring to mind.

Ian.

 

[KenpoMatt]

I just got back from vacation, so I'm joining this thread a little late. I agree that kenpo kicks a$$ when you're on your feet. But, like OFK said, you better know at least some basic grappling just in case.

I'm still a kenpo newbie. But, I know for a fact that in a few years I will train in jj, bjj, judo or something similar. Why wouldn't you?

Anyway - that's my 2 cents.

 

[Michael Billings]

Just for some perpective from one of those "More Traditional" Kenpo guys (as if!):

We do not do tournament sparring in my school. There is head contact (light) and body contact (moderate to heave) from day one. There are frequent take downs or actual grappling from the stand-up to the ground. I encourage my students to "fight out of it". It is always an eye opener for them. I do not teach BJJ, but have been exposed to it, Wally Jay's Small Circle Jui-Jitsu, taekwondo, shotokan, etc.

I encourage LOGICAL escapes. Someone is always trying to restrain or finish. I do not focus my coaching on them, but on the person trying to escape. This feedback is for both partners in case the tables get switched.

Did not want you not to have someone to disagree with.



OPPS, I forgot to mention the LOGICAL escapes are from the Kenpo system ... somewhere, usually pieces of extensions, where you see the shoulder dislocations, different types of takedowns, or buckles, throws, etc.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by satans.barber
I entirely agree with you, but I didn't think that was the issue here. What I read was, if a kenpo guy ends up on his back, he may be in trouble if his attacker has ground fighting experience - true, but, i was just saying I think the likelyhood of the attacker having that experience is pretty slim.



Probably not, no! Not having any mats at the school, I can't really practice this either without getting people hurt.



'Encounter With Danger' and 'Rolling Thunder (AKKI)' are the only two that spring to mind.

Ian.

To answer from top to bottom

Regarding having exp. True, not everybody is a skilled grappler, but there is always the chance that even if the person doesnt have that exp. just sitting on top of you with their body weight, while raining down punches, is something that you should be prepared for.

As for not having mats. While doing takedowns and throws on the ground is not the softest landing, I've grappled on the grass before.

As for the SD tech. 2 tech. IMO does not offer that many options.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

2 things:

Michael Billings: It sounds like you are taking a progressive, realistic approach to teachning and training. I applaud you for staying true to Kenpo while thinking outside the box and challenging your students.

Satans Barber: You will be surprised at how many people can grapple. Anyone who has done high-school wrestling, Judo, or who is bigger and stronger can be a real threat if you both go to the ground. While it is still rare to find a BJJ fighter in the street, it is not uncommon to find someone who can knock you down, sit on top, and start punching you in the face. If you haven't tried it, you will be amazed at how hard it is to escape from a pin underneath a good high-school wrestler.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
Just for some perpective from one of those "More Traditional" Kenpo guys (as if!):

We do not do tournament sparring in my school. There is head contact (light) and body contact (moderate to heave) from day one. There are frequent take downs or actual grappling from the stand-up to the ground. I encourage my students to "fight out of it". It is always an eye opener for them. I do not teach BJJ, but have been exposed to it, Wally Jay's Small Circle Jui-Jitsu, taekwondo, shotokan, etc.

I encourage LOGICAL escapes. Someone is always trying to restrain or finish. I do not focus my coaching on them, but on the person trying to escape. This feedback is for both partners in case the tables get switched.

Did not want you not to have someone to disagree with.



OPPS, I forgot to mention the LOGICAL escapes are from the Kenpo system ... somewhere, usually pieces of extensions, where you see the shoulder dislocations, different types of takedowns, or buckles, throws, etc.

Mr. Billings--Thanks for your reply! It's good to hear from some of the other Kenpo guys out there! I do recall that you have mentioned in the past that you have had some exp. in the grappling range. Just out of curiosity, how much training have you had? It is a good thing, like you mentioned, to have the students spar with some contact, and work the takedowns, like you mentioned.

You mention the escapes from the extensions. While the ext. are usefull if something goes wrong with the tech. but how effective are they going to be on the ground? I remember when I first started grappling. My Inst. mounted me and told me to get out from his mount. As hard as I tried, there was nothing that I could do. When pushing on the legs, my hands were easily removed. When reaching towards the midsection or face, I found myself in an armlock. I've heard people say that they are able to do a tech. while on the ground, but I dont see how. Can you explain further?

Mike