Importance of takedowns

[Echsos]

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?

 

[Makalakumu]

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?

I also think from a SD POV, learning to do your takedowns well is important. For one thing, then you can practice defended against them. For another, jumping into the guard is a good way to get body slammed on something nasty...

 

[Echsos]

Too many BJJ practitioners rely on the guard jump to go to the ground. I think they definitely need to practice takedowns enough until they're comfortable attempting takedowns. I don't know about BJJ but in wrestling so many matches have lost by a point or two, points that can easily be scored by a takedown. So if you are down by a point or two you can easily catch up and win the match by taking them down.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet.

Too bad you train at a club like that. You are right, the takedown points can make a difference, but as a wrestler you probably have some great takedown skills already. Maybe you can show some of your BJJ brethren some of your takedowns?

 

[Andrew Green]

So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?

As someone that likes to punch I'd say takedowns are very important. Can't defend what you can't do...

Sport grappling has it's own set of things that work though, even top guys jump guard (Eddie Bravo jumping half guard anyone?)

 

[Eric Daniel]

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?

I think that takedowns should be emphasized just as much as other things such as the guard. I have a question, if you can't take a person down how do you get into a dominant position whether it be the guard, mount, etc.?

 

[green meanie]

I think that takedowns should be emphasized just as much as other things such as the guard. I have a question, if you can't take a person down how do you get into a dominant position whether it be the guard, mount, etc.?

Good question. I can't imagine having my art revolve around groundwork and not take the time to work on a takedown to get someone there. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case at most BJJ schools I've been in; session after session of crawling around on my hands and knees and never working on a single takedown. I disagree with it.

 

[patroldawg27]

There are times when we strictly work on our ground game but we have just as many classes where we work takedowns for the majority of the class. I would much rather initiate the takedown than have to imeediately go on the defensive.

 

[WilliamJ]

Grappling is about control, controlling your opponent, controlling the position. If you cannot control how the fight/match goes to the ground you are missing a big piece. Even if you prefer to play the guard game you still want to be the one to determine when and how you get there. Takedowns are a must have.

 

[Rook]

Definately. Everytime I read stuff on the MMA boards BJJ people are complaining about how poor someone's takedown is, and with wrestlers increasingly becoming common in MMA complete with their superior takedown defense learning good throws and takedowns is probably going to be a must for anyone looking to compete.

 

[MattJ]

Grappling is about control, controlling your opponent, controlling the position. If you cannot control how the fight/match goes to the ground you are missing a big piece. Even if you prefer to play the guard game you still want to be the one to determine when and how you get there. Takedowns are a must have.

Well said, WilliamJ. I train BJJ as an adjunct to my other SD stuff. I am not a fan of "jumping to guard", and would rather try a takedown. Although I agree with Andrew that in sports BJJ, it is a viable technique. Meh.

 

[bladenosh]

They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street.

In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.

Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.

 

[matt.m]

At the BJJ club I train at everyone just seems to scoot on their butt or just guard jump when we start from our feet. Not trying to be mean or anything but as a wrestler it kinda bugs me that they don't even try to take somebody down and establish a dominant position, instead they just try to fall into guard. My takedown skills are probably my best skills in grappling(I train them extensively) and in my opinion, I feel that takedowns are something that should be mastered or at least spent more time on. Good takedowns will result in you earning points in competition and being able to dictate the pace of the match and occasionally what position you fall into after the takedown. So what are you guy's thoughts on takedowns, should they be emphasized more or is there really no need for them since the fight/match is going to the ground anyway?

Dude I am with you 100%. I tell you this for sure that you are correct. He is why I agree. In grade school I wrestled optimist, in high school I wrestled and well as Judo and USA free style wrestling. I wrestled and practiced Judo while I served in the Marine Corps. I am with you, take downs are mondo imprtant.

 

[Stan]

Every art trains with paradigms, and these paradigms can be limiting. It is almost a cliche how many strikers ignore ground work, but on the other hand, fights don't just go to the ground, especially against a striker with a solid stance who knows how not to overcommit to his strikes. Try training against a friend who specializes in a stand-up style. Friendly, light contact, MMA rules. He is not going to want to go to the ground, and is going to do everything in his power to keep from getting there. He knows you have him there. The question is, does he have you before it can become a ground fight?

It is a problem if most of your training just assumes "two guys on the ground".

 

[green meanie]

I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.

Absolutely!

 

[Andrew Green]

I don't care how solid a striker's stance is. If he doesn't learn to sprawl he's gonna get taken down.

Yeah, I never get that claim.

Seems like a wrestler claiming that if someone has a really good side control they will be really hard to punch in the face...

If you want to stop takedowns you need to train at stopping takedowns, not rooting your self and working your stance.

 

[Echsos]

They can put you in a dominant position immediately and give you the initiative. Hands down, takedowns give you points in a match. What I care about is the street.

In street fights I'll go into the clinch to get out of punching range if he outstands me, and let him go for the takedown. I defend as long as it takes until he gets frustrated, then I'll go down with one and make him still think he's setting the pace. Then I push him to my closed guard and relax while he fights around for something. When I see his muscles start turning red from fatigue, I'll go in for my submission and turn the tides of the fight. The beauty of it is the deception. They think they had you for the first 15 moves, then BAM the last 2 win it for you. This has worked for me many times in the past, especially against stronger opponents who think they undoubtedly can muscle through anything. Once that ATP is depleted, they are weaker than a 115 lb girl.

Every fight is different. If I'm in a different mood or have something to prove, I'll get the takedown and everything. I like deception though. Making all think I am weak and lucky, when really its been in my hands the whole time. I find when I fight in front of my girlfriend is the only time I really go for my takedowns to a hold, then submit.

Personally I would not want to play it slow in a street fight. My personal view to street fights is to end the fight asap and get the hell out of there. There are too many outside factors that determine the results of a street fight so I would not risk staying there too long. If I had to end a fight with grappling skills I would probably go for a double leg and slam him into the pavement then run.

Every art trains with paradigms, and these paradigms can be limiting. It is almost a cliche how many strikers ignore ground work, but on the other hand, fights don't just go to the ground, especially against a striker with a solid stance who knows how not to overcommit to his strikes. Try training against a friend who specializes in a stand-up style. Friendly, light contact, MMA rules. He is not going to want to go to the ground, and is going to do everything in his power to keep from getting there. He knows you have him there. The question is, does he have you before it can become a ground fight?

It is a problem if most of your training just assumes "two guys on the ground".

The reason why grappling dominate a lot of striking arts is simply because it is very easy to tie up with someone. Fights rarely end in one punch knockouts unless they're sucker punches. So even if you do eat a punch while trying to clinch you still have it in the end. And once they're on the ground they're a fish out of water.

 

[Brother John]

There are times when we strictly work on our ground game but we have just as many classes where we work takedowns for the majority of the class. I would much rather initiate the takedown than have to imeediately go on the defensive.

The thing I like about gooooood consistent and solid take-down skills is that IF you take someone down WELL.......that can be it. If you know how to really Slam someone with the Earth; the ground work may be very very simple. I find it EASY to subdue someone who just had a Nasty fall.
(and I'm not even a grappler)

Your Brother
John

 

[Eviscerate]

The thing I like about gooooood consistent and solid take-down skills is that IF you take someone down WELL.......that can be it. If you know how to really Slam someone with the Earth; the ground work may be very very simple. I find it EASY to subdue someone who just had a Nasty fall.
(and I'm not even a grappler)

Your Brother
John

Especially against bigger guys, it seems the bigger they are in general the slower they are back to their feet, which is often where a big guys mind is at...Mike Stidhams Ultimate Combat Experience has hashed this out over and over.