If Bruce Lee were alive today.

[H@pkid0ist]

I, and quite a few of my fellow students believe that if Bruce Lee were still alive that his system of MA would resemble Hapkido to an extreme degree. We do follow his principals and ideas. In large part becouse he did have such an influence with the people who made HKD what it is today. What are you guys thoughts on this. Curious to hear.

 

[WaterCircleHarmony]

Not sure i agree with you there.

Perhaps Bruce Lee would have used his speed and agility to deflect and counter more and avoid at all times to engage in grappling as he was slight of build and thus he would be more at an advantage in moving and finishing an opponent.

It would seem that engaging in a hold or grapple would limit the amount of tools available. Does a lock or throw fit in with his direct route to finishing?

Yes i agree on certain facets of HKD but his theory was JKD and that would have different meaning and feel to HKD.

Besides didn't he personally know GM Ji Han Jae?

Not experienced enough to comment properly, and i can't ask Bruce either. :asian:

 

[H@pkid0ist]

Actually my teacher, Ji Han Jae, and a few others used to train with Bruce Lee. This is one of the main reasons that our system was so influinced by him. As for our locks they still give us plenty of tools to utilize. Many locks still give the opportunity for us to kick or strike, and many throws allow us to lock and strike afterward. Also, many locks and throws are a finish in the end. They just allow us to decide how much we want to disable our opponent. Most lokcks can vary from simply locking the assail. or directly to breaking a bone or joint, and still being able to strike in turn.

 

[greendragon]

I wouldn't say that Hapkido was influenced by Bruce Lee, actually it was the other way around. Bruce Lee was influenced by Hapkido. Doju Nim Ji talks about going to Hong Kong to be in the movie "Game of Death", and about how Bruce Lee kept him there for months working out with him while making the movie. Doju Nim Ji says he had great respect for Bruce Lee and liked him a lot but he has never said or indicated any technique or concept in Hapkido being influenced by Bruce Lee.
Michael Tomlinson

 

[H@pkid0ist]

At the time of "Game of Death" Hapkido resembled karate more so throught the way Ji moved and held his stances. As well harder style techniques were a large part of the system. But as Ji, my teacher GM J.B. Lee, and others worked with bruce lee his ideologies in movement, fluidity, and adaptability were intergrated more into the HKD system. Hapkido became more of a fluid, adaptable art. Now I do not know GM Ji, all of my information comes from my GM who has studied under Ji and Choi, and recieved his 9th Dan in 1983. All I can do is take his word for it. But since my teacher is one of the original generation of students of Hapkido, then I do believe him without reservation. Now his personal view and take on the past could differ from others though. But I feel that I have the priveledge of training under history, he was there, lived it, and helped to develop HKD into what I study today. But even if it is only his personal view ( and he thinks no more of Bruce Lee than any other MAist who knew him ) I do believe that Bruce's ideals and concepts have become a major influince in a majority of the MAts and how they are practiced today. I don't believe he was the best in the world, but he was exceptional and his ideas were ahead of their time.

 

[greendragon]

To each his own and no offense but there is no evidence anywhere that Bruce Lee influenced Hapkido, as a matter of fact, if you study the techniques of the old Korea Hapkido Association, they can be found in the first Hapkido Bible by Dr. He Young Kim you will find that Hapkido was full of spinning kicks, jumping and spinning techniques, leaping and spinning punches, etc... etc..and by the way,, no forms at all, unlike every Karate system known to mankind. Hapkido was very fluid back then and didn't look like karate at all, I have studied with Doju Nim Ji personally and I'll take his word for it over anyone else that was around back then,, I also studied Hapkido from of Y.J. Chung in Dayton Ohio in 1969 when he taught a seperate Hapkido class other than his Moo Duk Kwan or Judo and Hapkido looked TOTALLY different from Karate back then, Hapkido looked like it was from another planet compared to the other martial arts of the time. I also studied traditional Goju Ryu Karate that year and the year before in 1968(I'm kind of an old fart) and they were as different as night and day, nothing alike whatsoever.
I guess Bruce Lee was a great martial artist. I like his philosopy but I'm not crazy about his techniques on film. I don't know about him personally, but I do know he had nothing to do with the roots and growth of Hapkido and to state that he did is really reaching very very far from center IMHO.
Bruce was exposed to Hapkido for a very short time and Hapkido was already very well established before Bruce was. When Bruce met Doju Nim Ji Han Jae, Ji was already a 7th dan in Hapkido!!
Michael Tomlinson

 

[white belt]

One word. AGE. Bruce was practical if nothing else. Speed and agility would eventually wain, even for him. A different approach would then need to be taken to compensate for dissolving attributes. The science of positioning and pressure points would be the next logical progression and focus in the evolution of Bruces development. The JKD purists would then have been taught different ways as "way" to tailor around the ravages of everyones adversary...time. At different stages in his development, before death, his art/style morphed and it looked more like this or that art depending on what period in his training was focused on. HKD would pop up somewhere eventually, as would many other styles, as the "similar" style and influence would then become obviously subjective based on his aging and waning alternatives. He of course would teach his younger students in a different manner than his age based personal practice to make sure practical use was made of the temporary superior conditioning potential of the young. He would have appeared even more confusing and hard to pin down, philosophy wise, in his old age than his present arrested state. He evolved and would not be trapped. To be like water in this case is to take the most practical personal route when having to defer to slowing reflexes and dissipating strength. How to take a strike while experiencing the least amount of damage from a younger quicker opponent (position) and how to manipulate the soft tissues and body cavities (pressure points). Those things even the playing field a bit when against a younger stronger opponent. I think the MORE ACCURATE question would have been, at what point in Bruce Lee's evolution DID OR WOULD his personal JKD most resemble HKD? What does everyone think? I base my logic on Alan Watts philosophy of flux and the example of Bruce's students who seem perplexed about many being taught differently by the same teacher. Him.

white belt

 

[H@pkid0ist]

My information comes from Han Jae Ji and my teacher, Jung Bai Lee. My teacher studied under Choi until he passed away in 87" and still is very close friends with Ji, getting his 9th from Ji in 1983. My teacher used to train with Bruce Lee. From what I am told Hapkido of old was more ridged and karate like back then, than it is now. It still flowed, but had more of a karate influince. Bruce Lee's thought and ideologies are what influinced HKD. THis is what i have been told by the men who shaped Hapkido into what it is today. I believe my teacher. He is one of the men who has developed HKD, and one of only Five 9the degree GMs in the world that are recognized by Korea. This is his words. He began his training with Choi a yaer after Ji, and has become technically in the top 5 as of ranking senority in the world in HKD. I have to believe what my Grand Master tells me. But I will say this, that reguardless of the truth I feel privledged to be able to train in one of the most increadable, eclectic, progressive, efficient, and effective systems in the world, and I hope as time goes by our family, the Hapkido family grows to epic praportions.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by greendragon ..... When Bruce met Doju Nim Ji Han Jae, Ji was already a 7th dan in Hapkido!!

Then the question becomes, is the present day HKD the same as the HKD that Ji knew at the time?

If the answer is yes, then HKD is not influenced by BL, rather BL's JKD was influenced by HKD.

If the answer is no, then what did HKD assimilated ?

 

[greendragon]

I love this thread but I honestly cant' imagine why you guys would tend to believe HKD was influenced by Bruce Lee? Bruce learned his spinning kicks from Hapkido, Bruce learned most of his joint locks from Hapkido, Bruce originally was a Wing Chun man, very static moving art when it comes to footwork,, the great thing about Bruce was that he could see thru the fog of dogma that restrains people from exploring what works and what is inefficient... he was a master at that, he wasn't confined by his dogma,, and that is beautiful.. and that is what Hapkido originally has always been, an art to basically counter other arts, now you can't be that if you are stuck in your own dogma,,, that is one thing that I think shows the most congrueity with JKD, is the fact that HKD is flowing also.. when you fight for real you find out "very quickly" by the way that rigid, robotic like techniques don't work, the actual framework of a real fight means that you are flowing with the moment and you don't know what is going to happen or what you will be attacked with,,, that in itself breeds fluidity if you do it enough,, I will go out on a limb and say that some HKD is probably very close to what Bruce would probably be doing now if he were alive,,
I can also say without a doubt that I have trained with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae and he has NEVER EVER mentioned Bruce Lee as a contributor to the philosopy or techniques of HKD, the last time we worked out though he did wear the same gold belt that Bruce gave him and he wore in the movie Game of Death,, it was cool because he demonstrated joint locks against belt grabs on one of my students,, Marty says "it was an honor to grab the gold belt of Ji Han Jae, that Bruce Lee gave him,, although it hurt like hell and I didn't have a hold of the belt very long"!!!
Michael Tomlinson

 

[H@pkid0ist]

I have never said anything about techniques. I have always stated his influince of ideology and philosophy. The way we evolve. And just becouse GM Ji has never said anything to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. One thing I have found is that the old Korean masters are very tight lipped about everything. What info on , obout my teacher and Hapkido that I have gotten has had to be dragged out of them through constant questioning and queery.
Question about Ji personally though. Do you train with him exclusivley, daily. And if so what is it like. I know for me my only teacher is my GM. It is increadable training with him. I hope that when I reach Ji and my GM's age I am a fraction as increadable as they are.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
I, and quite a few of my fellow students believe that if Bruce Lee were still alive that his system of MA would resemble Hapkido to an extreme degree. We do follow his principals and ideas. In large part becouse he did have such an influence with the people who made HKD what it is today. What are you guys thoughts on this. Curious to hear.

Did you know Bruce Lee studied hapkido under Han Jae Ji (who he battles in The Game of Death) and Choi Yong Sol

 

[H@pkid0ist]

Actually I did. My Gm used to studie with him along with Ji and Hon. I have heard a few stories about it. I don't look at B. Lee the same way as when I was a kid. Back then he was like a god, but now I realise that he was just as human as the rest of us. Also many people that I have talked to that knew him personally and trained with him said that he had kind of a Nepolian's complex or something(small man complex) I can only go be what I heard on that for sure.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
Actually I did. My Gm used to studie with him along with Ji and Hon. I have heard a few stories about it. I don't look at B. Lee the same way as when I was a kid. Back then he was like a god, but now I realise that he was just as human as the rest of us. Also many people that I have talked to that knew him personally and trained with him said that he had kind of a Nepolian's complex or something(small man complex) I can only go be what I heard on that for sure.

Agreed with you on the first part. B Lee pioneered scientific conditioning and training in MA. He demystified MA. But it looks like there is still a lot of work remains to be done in that dept.

As for the Naepolian's complex, it is over used by people to put down others who are better than them in every aspect except height. B Lee was what? 5'3"? 135lb?

To slander a person when he couldn't be there to defend himself is the most coward thing to do. I would like to see them tell that to his face.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
if Bruce Lee were still alive

He would be an old man.....

/Yari

 

[greendragon]

If Bruce Lee were alive today he would probably be beating the crap out of Steven Seagal with his chinese cane in a movie titled Under Siege part 27!!!
Michael Tomlinson

 

[hapkitaji]

Hmmmm,
I don't understand why some of you guys think that Bruce had anything to do with Hapkido. He was not a good Martial Artist, he was a "ACTOR" all of his fighting was on screen, let me see some of his actual fighting then maybe we can talk about him influencing Hapkido. As far as he philosophy goes it should have been good, he was a philosophy major in college...but any way that is just my 2 cents...if I am wrong lemme know. But, if I was GM Ji, or one of the five 5 9th dans in the world, I would personally hunt you down and beat the crap out of you...
:soapbox:

By the way one of the 9th dans is coming to my school in April...oh yea... Song ie Park....he was my teachers teacher...

 

[MacDaddy]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist
I have never said anything about techniques. I have always stated his influince of ideology and philosophy. The way we evolve. And just becouse GM Ji has never said anything to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. One thing I have found is that the old Korean masters are very tight lipped about everything. What info on , obout my teacher and Hapkido that I have gotten has had to be dragged out of them through constant questioning and queery.
Question about Ji personally though. Do you train with him exclusivley, daily. And if so what is it like. I know for me my only teacher is my GM. It is increadable training with him. I hope that when I reach Ji and my GM's age I am a fraction as increadable as they are.

My understanding is that Hap Ki Do has always been a "water" art, Choi originally called his system "Yu Kwon Sul" or Soft Hand Art. Master Hwang In Shik who teaches here in Toronto also went to Hong Kong in the late 60s/early 70s to train and choreograph movie fights and trained extensively with Jackie Chan. The Hong Kong martial artists were apparently impressed with the spinning and jumping kicking which was suitably spectacular on film and the fluidity of movement that Hap Ki Do's "soft blocking". Based on all of this and the essentially "feet down" nature of Win Chun, I'd guess that the Koreans brought a lot more to those Chinese movie styles than they took away, but certainly no cross-pollenation is ever one-way.....

 

[yilisifu]

If Bruce Lee were alive today.........

He'd be clawing at the inside of his coffin..........

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by hapkitaji
Hmmmm,
I don't understand why some of you guys think that Bruce had anything to do with Hapkido. He was not a good Martial Artist, he was a "ACTOR" all of his fighting was on screen, let me see some of his actual fighting then maybe we can talk about him influencing Hapkido. As far as he philosophy goes it should have been good, he was a philosophy major in college...but any way that is just my 2 cents...if I am wrong lemme know. But, if I was GM Ji, or one of the five 5 9th dans in the world, I would personally hunt you down and beat the crap out of you...
:soapbox:

By the way one of the 9th dans is coming to my school in April...oh yea... Song ie Park....he was my teachers teacher...

Personally, I think the man was a better martial artist than an actor.

I don't think you can say he wasn't a good martial artist. I mean he did come up with Jeet Kune Do. He came up with a lot of training techniques that have become standard today (nobody was using focus mits, or punching bags in the 60s unless they were boxers). I think he contributed a lot. It is also well documented that he won a lot of fights (Chinatown fight being a pretty good point - the best Chinatown had to offer). I'm not saying he's the best (as others have), but he seems to have been very, very good at the least.

Please remember, the man was teaching MA before serious acting (I'm not counting his childhood acting experiences).