If attacked, should you finish the job? Why or why not?

[Lynne]

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking him in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang. We have to walk down an alley. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. He wanted money. Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching. Heads up! He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.

The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night. One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley. But they can't be there all the time. In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently. She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.

Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

 

[tshadowchaser]

is anyone around to testify against me in court?

 

[Nolerama]

is anyone around to testify against me in court?

Heck yeah. I don't want some punk suing me.

Also, in a SD situation, isn't getting away the whole point? I'd take off after taking out the guy.

Multiple attackers? Yeah. I'd "finish the job." That is, if I have the opportunity to take them on one by one.

 

[stickarts]

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking him in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang. We have to walk down an alley. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. He wanted money. Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching. Heads up! He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.

The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night. One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley. But they can't be there all the time. In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently. She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.

Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.

 

[bluemtn]

is anyone around to testify against me in court?

I'm with him. I'll do what is needed to get away safely, and be very quick about getting away. Preferrably before they get to recover.

 

[harlan]

I'm kinda curious about who is giving you this advice? Not that my opinion matters, but I happen to think it's awful advice. Very optimistic...as if an opportunity should occur. This is my thinking: if it's life and death...choose life. If it's whack him with a shovel when he is weaponless and on the ground...that is murder.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

 

[morph4me]

In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.

I agree, the job is finished when the attacker can no longer attack. Finsihing the job doesn't have to be permanent but it should be decisive.

 

[Lynne]

In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.

Hopefully, I would be able to think in such a situation but I think adrenaline would take over. I don't know what I would do. I guess there is no way to know.

When I was told we should finish the job, I'm not sure if that meant to kill the person, or to make it such that the aggressor could not get up and come after the victim.

This is an example of a self-defense drill we do. The aggressor grabs me in a bear hug. I strike his groin or pinch the soft tissue on the inner thigh, drop down on my bottom, spread my legs, and pull him over my head. Then quickly get up and batter his face. Lastly, lay across his chest, get the arm in a four-square and break the arm. I suppose the battering to the face might kill the person. If I were to do that, I'd likely stomp the face with my foot...and run.

The other defense drills haven't gone that far yet. Bear hug - groin strike, elbow, elbow, turn and punch. If you had the composure, I guess you could keep pummeling the groin and face, whatever is accessible. But when do you stop? After they are unconscious? Edit: morphe4me answered the question about stopping.

 

[MA-Caver]

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking him in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang. We have to walk down an alley. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. He wanted money. Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching. Heads up! He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.

The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night. One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley. But they can't be there all the time. In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently. She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.

Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

This is the point I think Si-Je was trying to make in her thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65276 about pressing the attack/defense. But she was argued out by those of us (myself included ) who said it's better to take off once the attacker is down and the opportunity is there to run.
As a trained martialist you have a better chance to really hurt your attacker than the average woman who perhaps took one or two SD classes and hasn't really worked on her personal strength training regime.
I learned from a Kenpoist (EPAK more specifically) that Parker designed his techniques so that a combination of punches, kicks, etc. will totally disable an attacker to where one would conceivably just be able to walk rather than run away. He used the paper-clip bending analogy of when you constantly bend a paper-clip back and forth it'll break and become useless.
Now I'm all for that any day of the week. But this would be from a trained MA-ist.
And agreed if there are multiple attackers then yes, absolutely finish the job and then get the hell out of there. Hurting one and then turning to hurt the other gives the first one time to recover and that won't be good.

Lynne, first of all put faith in your training to help you should you need it.
Second, your situational awareness seems very right on track. But think about maybe changing out of your school t-shirt and "covering" the school logo on your duffel if you feel that it will cause you a fight "just for the hell of it". Otherwise don't sweat it. Ignore the cat-calls and if they press well you could (if you're feeling confident enough) turn around, drop the bag on the ground as if "SIGH, okay gotta kick some *** here, lets get it over with" get into a stance and tell the ladies (in that bored tired voice), "well, c'mon, I don't have all night"... maybe they'll think twice and leave you alone. :lol: After all... better to be thought of as crazy... than proven right.

But you can I think and have rights to do so... ask for an escort to the cars for those who feel threatened. Yes I recall that you have an officer or something that comes by but if they're called away ... well. Two MA-ists are better than one eh? Or go in a group and ensure the cars are parked close together.

The escort thing doesn't have to go on forever either. A few months each night of school and predators who lie and wait and watch will get the message that there are easier prey out there somewhere else. They're opportunists and will usually always go for the easiest one. Because, they don't want to get hurt... any more than you do.

Hopefully, I would be able to think in such a situation but I think adrenaline would take over. I don't know what I would do. I guess there is no way to know.

When I was told we should finish the job, I'm not sure if that meant to kill the person, or to make it such that the aggressor could not get up and come after the victim.

It means that exactly I'm sure. Nobody wants to kill... nobody decent that is.

This is an example of a self-defense drill we do. The aggressor grabs me in a bear hug. I strike his groin or pinch the soft tissue on the inner thigh, drop down on my bottom, spread my legs, and pull him over my head. Then quickly get up and batter his face. Lastly, lay across his chest, get the arm in a four-square and break the arm. I suppose the battering to the face might kill the person. If I were to do that, I'd likely stomp the face with my foot...and run.

The other defense drills haven't gone that far yet. Bear hug - groin strike, elbow, elbow, turn and punch. If you had the composure, I guess you could keep pummeling the groin and face, whatever is accessible. But when do you stop? After they are unconscious? Edit: morphe4me answered the question about stopping.

Battering to the face won't likely kill a person... ever watch a boxing match... or even Rocky? :wink1: They just won't look as pretty for a while.

 

[Lynne]

I'm kinda curious about who is giving you this advice? Not that my opinion matters, but I happen to think it's awful advice. Very optimistic...as if an opportunity should occur. This is my thinking: if it's life and death...choose life. If it's whack him with a shovel when he is weaponless and on the ground...that is murder.

I am thinking that the advice meant to disable the person so that they cannot get up and come after you. I think that's what was meant Maybe it was do what you have to do to survive.

I will say that the addressor appeared to be directing his comments to the women in particular. I can understand his concern.

 

[jkembry]

In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.

Ditto....beat me to the punch--so to speak.

 

[MBuzzy]

Here is the key to me....You must stop before or when you become the attacker. When you have changed the tide of the attack so that you are on the offense, that is the time to break off and run.

e.g. if I disarm someone who has a gun, then turn around and shoot them, I murdered them. If I am wrestling with them and the gun acidentally goes off before I've disarmed them and shoots them, its Self Defense. Fine line....but in one situation, I've become the attacker.

If you hit them, put them down, then jump on top and perform 3 more moves to hurt and disable them....a court would probably find you guilty. You've then become the attacker. It is a fine line and a tough question...but you have to remember that the first priority is to get away. Worry about YOUR safety, if the concern is tear off an arm so that they "can never do this to another person again" well....you are probably the attacker at that point.

btw - Thanks for starting the new thread! Good call!

 

[Lynne]

Battering to the face won't likely kill a person... ever watch a boxing match... or even Rocky? :wink1: They just won't look as pretty for a while.

I was thinking about the skull being crushed or bones/cartilage going into the brain. Maybe one less thing to worry about. Another one of those kill myths or something that everyone gets so tired of hearing about. Maybe there's a super secret pressure point right under the tip of the nose but just to the right.

 

[Lynne]

Here is the key to me....You must stop before or when you become the attacker. When you have changed the tide of the attack so that you are on the offense, that is the time to break off and run.

e.g. if I disarm someone who has a gun, then turn around and shoot them, I murdered them. If I am wrestling with them and the gun acidentally goes off before I've disarmed them and shoots them, its Self Defense. Fine line....but in one situation, I've become the attacker.

If you hit them, put them down, then jump on top and perform 3 more moves to hurt and disable them....a court would probably find you guilty. You've then become the attacker. It is a fine line and a tough question...but you have to remember that the first priority is to get away. Worry about YOUR safety, if the concern is tear off an arm so that they "can never do this to another person again" well....you are probably the attacker at that point.

btw - Thanks for starting the new thread! Good call!

I can only imagine myself acting in a murderous manner in two situations: someone was trying to seriously hurt my daughter or my husband. Ok, maybe my dog, too. What I mean is I would do whatever necessary to stop them. I sure don't train my mind to think in murderous ways. I don't believe that normal human beings do.

 

[harlan]

Ditto. Today is the one year anniversary of one of the most heinous crimes committed in this region. A wife, and her two daughters murdered in Connecticut last year. Horrible. The poor woman was driven to the bank to withdraw her money, while her daughters were in the hands of another assailant at home. At the time, all I could think of was, 'why didn't she kill her abductor?' She went into the bank, even notified the tellers to have the police go to her home...and then got back into the car. Even now...I shouldn't secondguess the poor woman...but I would have left the bank with a letter opener...something...anything...knowing my children were in the hands of bad guys.

In that situation...yes...I would 'finish the job.'

 

[terryl965]

My feeling is like this and this is how I explain woman self defense from an attacker, first rule of thumb get them to the ground as quick as possible and get out of there a s well. Since you are in that area alot have you seen to which way an attack can come from and where is your nearest avenue to get the hell out of there. Lastly if the attacker bgets back up from a goin shot then you did not do your job right and pulled the kick, remember to do damage is one of the biggest propblems people have when confronted in a real life stituation, I know if my wife did a full on kick in the going cup od not he is down for a good thirtyu seconds plenty of time to get away if you are level headed. This is why it is always so important to know your surrounding at all times, be aware of what and who is around you and see what others do not.

We take a group out to Wst end on the weekends to observe the surrounding and see if they saw what we the instructor saw and it helps you reach that sense of awareness as if it was another reaction to an action.

 

[Lynne]

My feeling is like this and this is how I explain woman self defense from an attacker, first rule of thumb get them to the ground as quick as possible and get out of there a s well. Since you are in that area alot have you seen to which way an attack can come from and where is your nearest avenue to get the hell out of there. Lastly if the attacker bgets back up from a goin shot then you did not do your job right and pulled the kick, remember to do damage is one of the biggest propblems people have when confronted in a real life stituation, I know if my wife did a full on kick in the going cup od not he is down for a good thirtyu seconds plenty of time to get away if you are level headed. This is why it is always so important to know your surrounding at all times, be aware of what and who is around you and see what others do not.

We take a group out to Wst end on the weekends to observe the surrounding and see if they saw what we the instructor saw and it helps you reach that sense of awareness as if it was another reaction to an action.

There is one parking lot I park in that's between two buildings. One side is the alley, the other side is a busy street. The day the guy asked for 84 cents, I was parked in the lot between the buildings. It's only a short distance to the street. (Our dojang has a front entrance on that busy street but parking is limited parallel parking so I never park out front.) Now if he chased and I ran, it would be bad news to run into the alley or the large parking lots on the other side. It would be better to confront him or run around and run toward the street.

We need to have that situational awareness. The other female I spoke of was followed in the alley for awhile before the guy asked her for money. But she knew she was being followed. He gave off the no-good vibes. By the description, he sounds like the same guy that had the gall to stop my car, too.

Sometimes I have to park in the larger lots. The good news is that there are some streetlights. The bad news is that I have to walk further, much further. I've actually thought about putting a dumbbell or brick in the bottom of my sparring bag.

I got what you said about getting them on the ground as quick as possible and then getting out

 

[SamT]

I'll jump in and quote my instructor, who was a body guard for 20 some years.

"My goal is to keep myself alive. If just a joint lock is going to show them who's in control, I'll just use a joint lock. I only go as far as needed." His joint lock example is a bar room brawl, though he has been attacked in the street as a part of his job. He's told me that the only time he'd kill someone is if it's absolutely necessary.

Fortunately, most of the time an attacker can be disabled easily, and then you can get away. Let fools be heroes.

 

[morph4me]

I can only imagine myself acting in a murderous manner in two situations: someone was trying to seriously hurt my daughter or my husband. Ok, maybe my dog, too. What I mean is I would do whatever necessary to stop them. I sure don't train my mind to think in murderous ways. I don't believe that normal human beings do.

You might want to consider a third situation, you won't be able to help your daughter or your husband if you get seriously hurt, so you might add yourself to that list.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Do what you need to do to feel safe enough to escape the situation.

If that involves a simple kick to the groin, then you're lucky. Kicks to the groin of a "jacked up" individual may not be as effective due to endorphins, adrenaline, drugs, etc....so you have to be moving to follow up or else give them another opportunity to attack again. You may have to do more....

....cool thing is, if you've practiced and trained hard, then you won't likely even realize what you've done to an attacker until you're giving the police a report and have to "think" about it.