I no longer care about Jeet Kune Do

frank raud

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So what, I can’t find every AAU championship winner, funny I believe I left a link. Damn the conspiracy runs deep...
There is obviously no doubt you are 100% correct and should never be questioned for your depth of knowledge. It is obvious you are so much smarter than anyone else here. I eagerly await your next knowledge dump
I know I feel smarter just reading your inspired words.
 

punisher73

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I think that to think all his students then their students are lying is silly. I’m not a Bruce Lee cultist but many said he was gifted

I know he can't see this reply, but I'm putting it on here for others.

I don't think that they were purposely lying about their background or that their students intentionally did. I did this with my own instructor. I heard something from other students and repeated it as fact when it was only partially correct and I was corrected on the information. No one purposely lied about it, it was a misunderstanding of the information.

I think also that people didn't/don't understand the differences in various competitions and experience levels or what the tournaments meant in the big scheme of things and passed on "bad" information. Jesse Glover won a big tournament as a brown belt in Judo. That got turned into he was a national champion. James Demile won a boxing tournament while in the Air Force and that got turned into he was the Air Force HW Champ. I have found NO sources from either of these gentleman directly making their claims in regards to national champions, it has always been passed on by others. Another example of this, one of the guys who used to work for me studied BJJ. I had other people telling me before I got to know him that he won the BJJ World Championship (IBJJF). He placed 3rd place in the IBJJF Open Purple Belt Division, don't get me wrong, that is a HUGE accomplishment and one to be very proud of, but it isn't the same as being "THE" BJJ World Champion overall. But, again most people don't understand the differences.
 

punisher73

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Unsupported Claim: Bruce Lee fought and taught many champions who were his students. Boxing champions in the military and National Judo Champions.

Fact: There were only 3 students who studied with Bruce Lee were authorized to pass on his JKD tradition.

1) Taky Kimura-no martial arts experience prior to Bruce Lee
2) James Yimm Lee-kung fu experience (not sure what style),
3) Dan Inosanto- kenpo black belt and others

While extraordinary martial artists, none of those three held any championships prior to (or after) studying with Bruce Lee.

Ted Wong held a certificate in both Jun Fan and JKD, but wasn't authorized to teach JKD. He also had no prior martial arts experience before studying with Bruce Lee and never won any championships.

Back in Seattle, before JKD there was a group of students, which seem to be the focus on the "champion" claim.

Jesse Glover: From his own website, "Seattle NCGF": Jesse Glover was born October 15th 1935 in Seattle, Washington. He was Bruce Lee’s first student and assistant instructor. Prior to meeting Bruce, Jesse studied Judo primarily. He excelled as a Judo player, winning many tournaments against higher ranking belts due to his superior technique. From prior research, Jesse Glover won the Pacific Northwest Championship in the Brown Belt Division. No claim or record of any national championships.

Also, of note when Glover asked Bruce Lee about teaching, this was the response, "When I told Bruce that I wanted to teach he said it was okay as long as I didn't call what I was teaching either Jun Fan or Wing Chun". (Just point that out that he wasn't an instructor in either of Bruce's systems of Jun Fan Kung Fu or JKD).

James Demile: Amborse Academy claims that, "He (Demile) became the Heavy Weight Champion of the Air Force for two years. He found his aggressiveness as a street fighter worked well in the boxing ring. He was undefeated and won 128 fights." In his own words, James Demile never claimed to be HW Champion of the Air Force, but that, "All I remember was most of my fights were in Fairbanks and they were not only with the Air Force but with the army that was attached to our base. The championship bouts for the different divisions took place in Anchorage. Most of the fights took play during the winter, which was long and cold. Most of us who boxed in our unit did so to keep from having to work on the flightline which was often 50 or 60 below zero. The fights were refered to as "smokers" and were often only three rounds at two minutes a round. We would often fought two or three times in one day depending on how many competitors there were. It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were not that good. They were goldbricks like me who did not want to go outside into the cold. The good fighters were in the Navy and Marines, which we never had to fight. Since I was brought up in an Orphanage I liked to fight. I still have a Neanderthal mentality when it comes to fighting and it was what allowed me to survive, not only in the ring, but in the street. My memory is vague on those years, but I know they were a lot of fun."

James Demile went on to create "Wing Chun Do" based on his training with Bruce Lee. Demile and Bruce had a falling out after Demile told some of Bruce's students that what Bruce was teaching wasn't practical. Bruce confronted Demile about it and that was the last they spoke. Demile also went on to say that the JKD Bruce purposely left out things that made his art work. "In all the years I have known people who trained in anything Bruce taught in his later periods, I have never known them to use the basic concepts as Bruce applied them. This includes Danny Inosanto. I do not mean this in a negative way, only that I feel Bruce cheated a lot of people by leaving out important details he used himself."

Bruce was VERY worried that someone might learn and be able to beat him.
 

drop bear

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"In all the years I have known people who trained in anything Bruce taught in his later periods, I have never known them to use the basic concepts as Bruce applied them. This includes Danny Inosanto. I do not mean this in a negative way, only that I feel Bruce cheated a lot of people by leaving out important details he used himself."

Yeah. But that is a classic kung fu trope. Where one student learned the "real" secrets.

I mean for example Dan insanto learned of enough good guys post Bruce Lee to to kind of be like, who cares.
 

punisher73

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Yeah. But that is a classic kung fu trope. Where one student learned the "real" secrets.

I mean for example Dan insanto learned of enough good guys post Bruce Lee to to kind of be like, who cares

I agree.

I see it all the time in MA's where a student stops learning as an instructor is refining their art. They don't like the refinements or want to learn something new and then claim that the new stuff wasn't the "real stuff".
 

gpseymour

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I think that to think all his students then their students are lying is silly. I’m not a Bruce Lee cultist but many said he was gifted
Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".
 

Mider

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Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".
Ok I
There is obviously no doubt you are 100% correct and should never be questioned for your depth of knowledge. It is obvious you are so much smarter than anyone else here. I eagerly await your next knowledge dump
I know I feel smarter just reading your inspired words.
isnt that what yikes saying about yourself ? If you’re so smart why haven’t you disproved his students claims?
 

Mider

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Nobody here has said he wasn't gifted. Someone has questioned specific claims, and pointed out why they take issue with them. Again, you're drawing the false dichotomy of "he's great or they are lying".
And like I said, when you start calling people who knew Lee and his students liars I start rolling my eyes.

never once said he was great
 

frank raud

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Ok I

isnt that what yikes saying about yourself ? If you’re so smart why haven’t you disproved his students claims?
what it says about my intellect is that I'm forced to use deductive reasoning, common sense and the ability to differentiate between primary and secondary sources of information. You are obviously not limited by such things
Why haven't I disproved his students claims? I've questioned the claims and raised more than reasonable doubt to the veracity of the statements, as have others. Why haven't you proven them?
 

Cynik75

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never once said he was great
Was he? No fighting record, no coach achievements, very little influence (if any at all) on the development of modern hand-to-hand combat (kravmaga and the BJJ/MMA made the biggest impact). He inspired many kids to learn "karate", but the same way Sly inspired many to join the army or to be a boxer - does it make Sly soldier or boxer?
Bruce was talented martial artist but I can see nothing why he should be called "great".
 

gpseymour

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And like I said, when you start calling people who knew Lee and his students liars I start rolling my eyes.

never once said he was great
And, again, there's such a thing as just being mistaken about specific points.

But go ahead and claim victimhood here. It looks good on you.
 

lklawson

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Lol not true, he had boxing champs in the army, and Glover was a national judochamp

look bro I’m not interested in trolls, you are obviously one, blocked
Toll?
i dont think that word means.jpg
 

lklawson

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This coming from the guy who thinks everyone’s lying? Ok man lol
I'm still wondering why you get to decide what is "a 'true' martial artist" or why your heavy emphasis on some sort of training philosophy is more correct than anyone else'.
 

Mider

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You want sources for "Judo Gene" LeBell winning the AAU Judo championship? How many?
i do recall posting sources. I mean solves for Jesse Glover lying...you guys seem to have reading issues
 

Mider

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I'm still wondering why you get to decide what is "a 'true' martial artist" or why your heavy emphasis on some sort of training philosophy is more correct than anyone else'.
When did I say I decided? Now yoyre just turning this into a dick measuring contest, not even going to engage you further
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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i do recall posting sources. I mean solves for Jesse Glover lying...you guys seem to have reading issues
Verifiable sources. As in one's coming from the organization themselves, or even a specific championship, not someone else with vague information.
 

Mider

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And, again, there's such a thing as just being mistaken about specific points.

But go ahead and claim victimhood here. It looks good on you.
I mean you can keep being silly and obfuscating the point I guess you want to fit in. At 36 I honestly don’t care If I fit in.

the point I made is and maybe you’ll get this through your head this time, is that Glovers students and fellow students said he was a judo champion, and others were boxers

arguing otherwise is pointless unless you can show it’s not true...theres no public AAU judo championship list. There’s articles saying Jesse was a judo champ I guess we ignore those but go with the ones of Lebell? Ok lol...
 

gpseymour

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I mean you can keep being silly and obfuscating the point I guess you want to fit in. At 36 I honestly don’t care If I fit in.

the point I made is and maybe you’ll get this through your head this time, is that Glovers students and fellow students said he was a judo champion, and others were boxers

arguing otherwise is pointless unless you can show it’s not true...theres no public AAU judo championship list. There’s articles saying Jesse was a judo champ I guess we ignore those but go with the ones of Lebell? Ok lol...
There are people who have referred to me as an expert in Karate. Some of them you'd expect to know the facts. I've been introduced (in front of an audience) as a black belt in Karate. I have less than a year of cumulative training in Karate, and have never earned any rank.

People are often mistaken about things, which is why we often want to find documentation of some sort to determine what the reality is.
 

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