Hybrid cars? What they didn't tell you?

[still learning]

Hello, Hybrid cars are now sold everywhere and the demand is growing as the price of gasoline goes up and up.

Today the price of an hybrid after 6 years will be the same cost run like same model on gasoline.

BUT here is the kicker....How long will those battery last and what will it cost to replace them? They say 8 plus years before replacement...and it will be in the thousand of dollars (heard about 3-4 thousand dollars)

Ask before you buy one and what happens if you plan to keep it that long? and what about resales? .....Please do you research on this before buying one? ........Aloha

 

[michaeledward]

The last report I saw said that batteries in current hybrid vehicles will outlast the vehicle itself.

This is not to say there are exceptions of vehicles staying on the road much longer than most expect. We still see those late 60's Camaro and Firebirds every summer don't we? But when was the last time you saw a mid 70's Mustang on the road?

 

[Jenna]

Because batteries need recharged.. semi battery hybrid cars merely move the source of the emissions that formerly came from the exhaust pipes of the car to the clouds belching from the stacks at the electricity generating companies. These methods are simply token gestures to appease our "green" consciences and tokens to a problem about which we are doing too little too late.. ..IMO..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[michaeledward]

Because batteries need recharged.. semi battery hybrid cars merely move the source of the emissions that formerly came from the exhaust pipes of the car to the clouds belching from the stacks at the electricity generating companies. These methods are simply token gestures to appease our "green" consciences and tokens to a problem about which we are doing too little too late.. ..IMO..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Toyota's Hybrid Synergy drive recharges batteries by converting the kenetic energy of the moving vehicle into stored energy in the batteries when the vehicle is braking. The activity of braking a vehicle does not create any emissions at the local electrical power plant.

I believe other manufacturer's technology uses a similar design.

 

[evenflow1121]

Good post, but I ll tell you what though, an 8 year replacement I think is hella good. I mean I dont plan on keeping it for 8 years anyway, I d like to get the new model, you know the one the one that looks exactly the same except for shinny new hubcap designs 2 years later. But seriously that sounds pretty good.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If I had the cash, I'd buy a Prius. The Star Trek dash board alone is cool.

 

[crushing]

Because batteries need recharged.. semi battery hybrid cars merely move the source of the emissions that formerly came from the exhaust pipes of the car to the clouds belching from the stacks at the electricity generating companies. These methods are simply token gestures to appease our "green" consciences and tokens to a problem about which we are doing too little too late.. ..IMO..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna,

Centralizing emissions to power plants may not be such a bad thing. Here the emissions can be better managed and the 'belched clouds' scrubbed of the many of the pollutants that the exhaust systems on cars can not do, or a least do cost effectively. This is an area we can, in a green way, take advantage of economies of scale.

:asian:
crushing

 

[mrhnau]

Jenna,

Centralizing emissions to power plants may not be such a bad thing. Here the emissions can be better managed and the 'belched clouds' scrubbed of the many of the pollutants that the exhaust systems on cars can not do, or a least do cost effectively. This is an area we can, in a green way, take advantage of economies of scale.

:asian:
crushing

indeed. Or, you can do better and use cleaner energy producing technology. Wait until Nuclear Fusion gets online hehe.. thats going to be nice. Until then, nuclear fission is relatively cleaner than old technologies. Wind is useful in some areas, as is hydroelectric. They still need to harness more solar energy in the cells to become universally useful IMHO. I don't want my roof covered in panels that produce enough energy to keep my water warm (granted, depends on location, weather, etc, so don't jump on me for that one ). Now get something that size of a large book that can heat my water and not cost me thousands, you have a buyer. I think they are at 12% efficiency right now at last check (few years back). That is, converting 12% of the energy from the sun into usable energy. They won't get 100%, but even 50% would be a drastic improvement.

I think Jenna's point is we are just feeling better individually by transfering the waste somewhere else. If what Michael said is true, I'd be suprised if more vehicles don't start using that technology. Take away from the "plug and play" car.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hello, Hybrid cars are now sold everywhere and the demand is growing as the price of gasoline goes up and up.

Today the price of an hybrid after 6 years will be the same cost run like same model on gasoline.

BUT here is the kicker....How long will those battery last and what will it cost to replace them? They say 8 plus years before replacement...and it will be in the thousand of dollars (heard about 3-4 thousand dollars)

Ask before you buy one and what happens if you plan to keep it that long? and what about resales? .....Please do you research on this before buying one? ........Aloha

Do a search on this subject here to find other threads where I have discussed this same issue.

As to Batteries CARB and the EPA has followed that if a vehicle is to be certified as a Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (* PZEV *) then the warranty of the Emission component parts over a certain cost point is 10 years and 150,000 miles.

The Current is 8 years and 80,000 miles. The ECM/TCM/PCM is about the only single unit item that breaks the cost limit today.

In the hybrids, the Batteries, as well as the brakes, and allthe computer control units exceed the current limits.

The current life expectency of a battery is about 7 to 8 years, so it is expected that for every hybrid sold there will be a reaplcement battery warranty charge. Of course this plus the additional costs are rolled into what the customer pays at the dealership.

The Electric vehicles did have to be recharged by an external source, while the advantage of the hybrids (* No infrastructure required *), is that they recharge the batteries during normal performace.

I have driven a few of the hybrids on the market, and they are nice for accelleration as you get an electrical boost from the electrical motors that assist the IC (* Internal Combustion *) engine. This maneuver is done at WOT (* Wide Open Throttle *).

While I agree that some of the displays are neat, they are not always honest, or are misleading. The one with the cool arrows that tell you which wheels are being powered by which source and if your driving is charging or discharging the batteries is nice in general, but when the system is depleted and there is no real battery assist it keeps jumping from charge to discharge to assist, and can make the customer think there is a problem.

Also the kW Kilo Watt meter that some are using as well is not a measure of the electrical motors but is a measure of the system. I depleted vehicle where its batteries had no real effective charge on display (* which means they were most likely low and not completely discharged, once again misleading *) The meter follows a curve of speed and throttle and possible torque. This includes the IC engine then in the calculations, which is nice for us engineer types, but once again is misleading to the customer. Yet, the costumer thinkgs they are getting all this electrical assist even when they are not, and coudl feel good about their vehicle.

(* NOTE: It took 7 WOT's from 0 to 85 mph to deplete the batteries of the vehicle I mentioned above. *)

Hybrids are the right direction to go to if one wnats to use less fuel.

Are they cheaper for the customer? Not likely, as the mroe technology and parts used to make something perform means more chance for failure based upon complexity of the system.

 

[Cryozombie]

The last report I saw said that batteries in current hybrid vehicles will outlast the vehicle itself.

This is not to say there are exceptions of vehicles staying on the road much longer than most expect. We still see those late 60's Camaro and Firebirds every summer don't we? But when was the last time you saw a mid 70's Mustang on the road?

Yeah, my Car is a '72.

Id drive a hybrid if I could afford one. As it stands, I just use my cycle WAY more than my car... the gas milage is almost as good.

 

[Carol]

Been keeping my eye on the hybrids myself.

Regenerative braking is how the batteries are charged on hybrid. Current braking systems are done by friction...stopping the car by dissipating the motion in to heat. Hybrid braking systems are done by engaging a turbine that charges the battery....kind of like working out on an exercise bike and cranking the resistance way up. It does make for a very different feel for stopping the car.

Hybrid cars offer a very different driving experience. On the inside, they are QUIET due to greatly reduced engine noise. Many have gearless transmissions (CVT) as well. The combination was...kind of Zen, in my experience. Very futuristic, and rather pleasant...also very different from what I am used to.

Most hybrid cars have a very....realistic design. There are a couple out there like the Honda Insight that have packages forgoing creature comforts such as Air Conditioning or power windows...but most of the "mainstream" cars have these features and largely mimic the experience of driving an ordinary car.

The IRS is offering a tax deduction for buying a hybrid vehicle, but note that it is a tax DEDUCTION and not a tax CREDIT. The deduction is best taken advantage of by those that itemize heavily or have an income in the upper tax brackets.

The biggest "gotchas" in my mind:

The batteries last about 8 years, and replacing them is serious monhey. Most manufacturers warranty the batteries for 8 years, albeit prorated. Bateries are chemical, not mechanical. Batteries generally do not expire premateurly...HOWEVER...battery life is LOWER in northern climes as the colder weather puts more stress on the battery.

And this to me leads to the biggest "What they didn't tell you" of all. The colder the weather, the less output of the battery. For drivers in climates that get a real winter, the mileage of the hybrid drops MEASUREABLY in cold weather. The battery puts out less wattage, which results in the electric engine doing less work.

The way it stops and starts the electric motor every time the engine comes to a stop to maximize efficiency. Upon reading 0 RPM the engine cuts out, restarting quickly as the driver lifts her foot off the brake. This is all good. BUT - on the Hondas (and I think the Toyotas too) this stop-start cycle is ONLY used if you are running your car's HVAC in Economy mode, which shuts off the fan when the desired temperature is reached. That may be totally OK with some folks but the car's cabin is normally a pretty tight seal and I need the moving air to help stay awake behind the wheel. That's me thouh, and my driving habits...but it's another thing that cuts in to the mileage.

The batteries for the cars may affect the way the car's storage is laid out. Some cars don't have drop-down rear seats. Depending on what one uses their car for, this could create a problem.

This is changing, but not all fire departments have the training in properly understand how to identify a hybrid car in a wreck. The batteries in a hybrid supply power that is unquestionably lethal. It's the fire fighters that are the first responders equipped with the Jaws of Life and other power tools that can cut in to a car to get the people out. If the votage is exposed, esp. through it's line being cut, this will kill whomever is in contact with it. If considering the purchase, it would be prudent to check with the fire fighters in the areas where you typically drive to ensure they have training in identifying hybrid vehicles in rescue efforts.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A letter I received:

Media Relations Office Washington, D.C. Media Contact: 202.622.4000

www.IRS.gov/newsroom Public Contact: 800.829.1040

Several GM Vehicles Certified for Alternative Vehicle Tax Credit​

IR-2006-108, July 11, 2006

WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service has acknowledged the certification by General Motors Corporation that several of its 2006 and 2007 vehicles qualify for the Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit created by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. The tax credit for hybrid vehicles applies to new vehicles placed in service on or after Jan. 1, 2006.
The hybrid vehicle certifications recently acknowledged by the IRS and their credit amounts are:
GMC Sierra (4WD) hybrid pickup truck Model Year 2006 $650.00
GMC Sierra (4WD) hybrid pickup truck Model Year 2007 $650.00
Chevrolet Silverado (4WD) hybrid pickup truck
Model Year 2006 $650.00
Chevrolet Silverado (4WD) hybrid pickup truck
Model Year 2007 $650.00
GMC Sierra (2WD) hybrid pickup truck Model Year 2006 $250.00
GMC Sierra (2WD) hybrid pickup truck Model Year 2007 $250.00
Chevrolet Silverado (2WD) hybrid pickup truck
Model Year 2006 $250.00
Chevrolet Silverado (2WD) hybrid pick up truck
Model Year 2007 $250.00
Starting in 2006, this tax credit replaces the tax deduction of $2,000, which was previously allowed for taxpayers who purchased a new hybrid vehicle before Dec. 31, 2005, for the clean-burning fuel deduction. The tax credit requires a different certification. Many currently available hybrid vehicles may qualify for this new tax credit.

- more -​

Consumers seeking the credit may want to buy early since the full credit is only available for a limited quantity of vehicles sold by a manufacturer to retail dealers. Taxpayers may claim the full amount of the allowable credit up to the end of the first calendar quarter after the quarter in which the manufacturer records its sale of the 60,000th vehicle. For the second and third calendar quarters after the quarter in which the 60,000th vehicle is sold, taxpayers may claim 50 percent of the credit. For the fourth and fifth calendar quarters, taxpayers may claim 25 percent of the credit. No credit is allowed after the fifth quarter.
For more information and a complete listing of all qualified hybrid vehicles, please visit IRS.gov.

 

[Rich Parsons]

And another one:

Media Relations Office Washington, D.C. Media Contact: 202.622.4000

www.IRS.gov/newsroom Public Contact: 800.829.1040


GM’s 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line

Certified for the New Energy Tax Credit

IR-2006-110, July 11, 2006

WASHINGTON — The Internal Revenue Service has acknowledged the certification by General Motors Corp. that its 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line vehicle qualifies for the Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit created by the Energy Policy Act of 2005. This certification is under IRS Notice 2006-9. The tax credit for hybrid vehicles applies to new vehicles placed in service on or after Jan. 1, 2006.
The credit amount for the hybrid vehicle certification of the Saturn Vue Green Line Model Year 2007 is $650.
Starting in 2006, this tax credit replaces the tax deduction of $2,000, which was previously allowed for taxpayers who purchased a new hybrid vehicle before Dec. 31, 2005, for the clean-burning fuel deduction. The tax credit requires a different certification. Many currently available hybrid vehicles may qualify for this new tax credit.
Consumers seeking the credit may want to buy early since the full credit is only available for a limited time. Taxpayers may claim the full amount of the allowable credit up to the end of the first calendar quarter after the quarter in which the manufacturer records its sale of the 60,000th vehicle. For the second and third calendar quarters after the quarter in which the 60,000th vehicle is sold, taxpayers may claim 50 percent of the credit. For the fourth and fifth calendar quarters, taxpayers may claim 25 percent of the credit. No credit is allowed after the fifth quarter.
For more information and a complete listing of all qualified hybrid vehicles, please visit IRS.gov.

 

[Rich Parsons]

CVT's or Continuous Variable Transmissions are belt and pulley transmissions.

Think Snow-mobile, only Metal Belt.

They do not shift and can be used to change ration and keep the engine in a nice power band.

Even Nissan in their most recent Shift_2.0 commercial has the woman waiting for the shift and the engine RPM's just keep rising.

This actualy is one of the number one complaints from customers. The engine is running away or high RPM's. Also others do not like it for the feel.

I have driven them and worked on this program as well as others at GM.

No some of the issues with CVT's which is just part of the overall design. The Belt requires two match ground pulley's and given the design of the system there can be low end growl. That is where there is torque at launches and the system is not up and moving yet. There are also limits on the amount of torque that can be entered into the system and also the total amount of mass or inertia the system can absorb. The Belts slip on the pulley's with excessive torque or great changes to the system, hence the inertia term is import as well.

Once again, this system is new and many people did not like it. Some did and do like it. That is good. But there are more people who do not like the system. Very similiar to Automatic transmissions when they were first introduced, but the benefit they gave was not having to shift, so it made it easier to drive. These other new functions are neat and help with fuel economy and all, but the general population is not ready to accept them en masse. Even in Saturn that has this Halo effect for new products and functionality the customers were not completely enthused with the CVT's.

EVT's are Electronically Variable Transmissions, and these are also continuously variable if one looks at the ratio changes, but since the market has already been introduced to the Belt and Pulley CVT, the new electronic ones are usually referred to as EVT's.



Once again all steps in the right direction, but will not fit the masses yet.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Good scoop, Rich. Thanks.

Mi Esposa wants a Prius. I'll give this info to her so she can check it out.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Carol]

Awesome stuff, Rich! :asian: