Hybrid Arts

[wayfaring]

I'm not a MMA coach. But I'm a Sanda/Sanshou coach for the past 30 years. The MMA didn't even exist back in my time. To integrate striking into grappling is an import task for the American Combat Shuai Chiao Association (ACSCA) that was founded back in 1984. I also tried to share my personal experience here such as how to use

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up take down.
- take down to set up ground control.
- ...
snip

I can relate a lot more to the detail in this type of post than in a generic YOUs responsibility generalization like the previous exchange.

Yes, I can appreciate the experience in Sanda combined with shuai chiao. This approach is actually pretty much mostly what you see in modern MMA and does combine striking / grappling. The arts combined at the MMA place I spar at are dutch muy thai, wrestling (freestyle & greco), and BJJ or nogi submission grappling. There may be a little more there as to the submission finishes, but otherwise similar approach to what you are doing and talking about.

MMA even drills great combos like you mention a bit above - I'm thinking of inside leg kick -> 2 punch -> double-leg takedown. Or even there are guys so good at seeing you start to plant your lead leg on a jab and time the double leg.

I mean maybe you are like a MMA coach and can coach your guys how to combine some striking and grappling principles.

I however, am starting to see something in my core wing chun art that I had not previously. There is a limitation to me in a primarily handfighting approach. Why punch to set up a clinch and clinch to take down? Is this most efficient? Does this preserve the best self defense position including considering the possibility of this not being a 1 on 1 encounter?

 

[Transk53]

I can relate a lot more to the detail in this type of post than in a generic YOUs responsibility generalization like the previous exchange.

Yes, I can appreciate the experience in Sanda combined with shuai chiao. This approach is actually pretty much mostly what you see in modern MMA and does combine striking / grappling. The arts combined at the MMA place I spar at are dutch muy thai, wrestling (freestyle & greco), and BJJ or nogi submission grappling. There may be a little more there as to the submission finishes, but otherwise similar approach to what you are doing and talking about.

MMA even drills great combos like you mention a bit above - I'm thinking of inside leg kick -> 2 punch -> double-leg takedown. Or even there are guys so good at seeing you start to plant your lead leg on a jab and time the double leg.

I mean maybe you are like a MMA coach and can coach your guys how to combine some striking and grappling principles.

I however, am starting to see something in my core wing chun art that I had not previously. There is a limitation to me in a primarily handfighting approach. Why punch to set up a clinch and clinch to take down? Is this most efficient? Does this preserve the best self defense position including considering the possibility of this not being a 1 on 1 encounter?

Because the punch is weighted to sting only, thus giving a window for the clinch/grapple for the take down and restrain.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why punch to set up a clinch and clinch to take down? Is this most efficient? Does this preserve the best self defense position including considering the possibility of this not being a 1 on 1 encounter?

When you are dealing with multiple opponents, the grappling is not a good approach. I still remember that onetime my Shuai Chiao teacher got into a fight in an office space against 7 guys. He used mainly elbow in the whole fight, no punch, no kick, no lock, no throw. This is why I always have faith in "elbow". You may not have enough space to punch or kick, but you will always have enough space to strike with your elbow.

IMO, the striking and grappling integration is used mainly in 1 on 1 situation. The moment that you put yourself on the ground, you lose your "mobility". This is why one should also train take down and take off at the same time. Even you take your opponent down, you don't have to go down yourself.

 

[Transk53]

When you are dealing with multiple opponents, the grappling is not a good approach. I still remember that onetime my Shuai Chiao teacher got into a fight in an office space against 7 guys. He used mainly elbow in the whole fight, no punch, no kick, no lock, no throw. This is why I always have faith in "elbow". You may not have enough space to punch or kick, but you will always have enough space to strike with your elbow.

IMO, the striking and grappling integration is used mainly in 1 on 1 situation.

Yeah you right. Maybe one exception with grabbing one, then using them as a foil, if only for a moment. Which generally is all that is needed.

 

[wayfaring]

Here is an example. The goal of my major style Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) is to take my opponent down without going down with him. If I use that goal as guideline, I'll never be able to

- use a throw to obtain dominate position.
- use dominate to start the ground game.

The following clip may be a big no no from my SC teacher point of view. But to me, it's a big improvement.

So yes. Hopefully we will see some of this going on tonight if Ronda Rousey can get her clinch game going against Amanda Nunes.

On that clip, from a sheer position perspective this is a classic judo and BJJ technique - hip toss to the armbar. There can be an escape transition period as you are going to your back to finish the armbar. If you throw someone hard the shock will cover it. But this transition weakness is probably at the core of your SC teachers concern. Look up a BJJ match Gary Tonon vs. Kron Gracie sometime to see the sheer possibilities of escaping that armbar. But yes, Ronda has done quite well with it. Hopefully she's got some more.

 

[Flying Crane]

From my perspective, I give back the energy that is given me here. You are so nice to point out my condescending and perceived abrasive responses without any acknowledgement or validation to point out the condescending posts that elicited these responses after I initiated an honest discussion on my changing viewpoint over time of the hybridization of arts.

Do you acknowledge what I am saying here? Or insist on glossing it over?

Good luck to you.

 

[wayfaring]

When you are dealing with multiple opponents, the grappling is not a good approach. I still remember that onetime my Shuai Chiao teacher got into a fight in an office space against 7 guys. He used mainly elbow in the whole fight, no punch, no kick, no lock, no throw. This is why I always have faith in "elbow". You may not have enough space to punch or kick, but you will always have enough space to strike with your elbow.

IMO, the striking and grappling integration is used mainly in 1 on 1 situation. The moment that you put yourself on the ground, you lose your "mobility". This is why one should also train take down and take off at the same time.

LOL. Your SC teacher sounds like a wing chun guy in that fight. This is what is leading me towards areas in wing chun that are towards a striking, sinking and pursuit mindset on bridge contact. But yes, all elbows. The biu jee recovery approach, right wing chun folks?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah you right. Maybe one exception with grabbing one, then using them as a foil, if only for a moment. Which generally is all that is needed.

To take your opponent down, use that falling body to block others, so you can take off. Not many people still train this skill.

Today people believe in "ground game is everything", and you can see chimpanzee fights crab.

 

[Juany118]

When you are dealing with multiple opponents, the grappling is not a good approach. I still remember that onetime my Shuai Chiao teacher got into a fight in an office space against 7 guys. He used mainly elbow in the whole fight, no punch, no kick, no lock, no throw. This is why I always have faith in "elbow". You may not have enough space to punch or kick, but you will always have enough space to strike with your elbow.

IMO, the striking and grappling integration is used mainly in 1 on 1 situation. The moment that you put yourself on the ground, you lose your "mobility". This is why one should also train take down and take off at the same time. Even you take your opponent down, you don't have to go down yourself.

Agreed. Also the way you prefer to maintain contact, as shown in the last video, is essentially how I do takedowns. Also once I am down I try to remain vertical somewhat (kneeling what have you). I want control but whenever possible (and it's not always possible) I want to remain somewhat vertical so I can disengage more rapidly if the circumstances suddenly require it.

 

[wayfaring]

Some people only see the value of on type of experience. Thing is there are others outside of formal competition in a Ring.

First you have Occupations. You have the Bouncer who has to deal with the drunk (and thus more resistant to pain) people who are fighting in bars. You have the soldier, whose job now includes having to not use deadly force due to peace keeping missions and counter insurgency protocols (so you got the Marine corp LINE system being replaced by MCMAP), you have LE and Corrections officers etc. These occupations find out rather quickly what consistently works and what does not.

Second simply proper pressure testing in training and what I consider "fun" sparring at least. By "fun" I mean stuff like this... though I prefer lightly padded sticks we use at my school when we Kali spar because I don't want to have use my AFLAK.

People who are overly focused on competition in the ring miss how many people train the same way, even fight harder on the job (life and death vs "hey I won!!!!!"). It's can simply be about having fun in an adrenaline junkie sorta way like the Dog Brothers Gatherings, it can be about training hard and realistically for self defense, it can be about training to make sure you go home in one piece. In the end though it's about how you train and test and LOTS of places do that right, not just MMA.

I would actually discuss this outside the gaslighting comments about who someone can and can't see and generalizations about "people".

LEO's probably would do better on the job to approach a primarily handfighting mindset. Unless someone is swinging on them, there can be legal and policy consequences to initiating striking.

Dog Brothers approach actually is a MMA match with weapons. Same adrenaline escalation. Similar scenario with lack of rules or scaled down rules.

 

[Transk53]

Good luck to you.

Must of missed that. You were doing what now?

 

[Transk53]

To take your opponent down, use that falling body to block others, so you can take off. Not many people still train this skill, Today people believe in "ground game is everything".

Yes I agree with you. However, there was too much momentum in that clip. It should have been stop and search, look for threat. The defender turned into uncontrollable situation. IMHO.

 

[wayfaring]

To take your opponent down, use that falling body to block others, so you can take off. Not many people still train this skill, Today people believe in "ground game is everything".

I don't believe that, but I did win a BJJ match with that exact takedown. We ended up OB, I got reset in guard, passed, and won 5-0.

If you have someone in guard on your back, sometimes you can manipulate them to keep them between you and others and keep others from circling around to your head where they can kick you. But you better get up pretty quick, IMO.

 

[Flying Crane]

Must of missed that. You were doing what now?

I wasn't doing anything, actually.

 

[Juany118]

Must of missed that. You were doing what now?

I think he was responding to some of have on ignore.

 

[Transk53]

I wasn't doing anything, actually.

Yeah no worries. Was wondering what Wayfaring was referring to in a previous post. Not meant to slight you at all.

 

[Transk53]

I think he was responding to some of have on ignore.

Oh. That makes even more sense. Yeah having a slow moment

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah no worries. Was wondering what Wayfaring was referring to in a previous post. Not meant to slight you at all.

Sure, understood. I think he and I may simply be having a parting of ways, wishing him the best in whatever comes his way.

 

[wayfaring]

Because the punch is weighted to sting only, thus giving a window for the clinch/grapple for the take down and restrain.

Yes, and they work. The wing chun way is the clinch is control the bridge without being controlled. Don't give up mobility by clinching and going to the ground.

 

[wayfaring]

Sure, understood. I think he and I may simply be having a parting of ways, wishing him the best in whatever comes his way.

Hi Flying Crane,

I wasn't aware we ever had a "joining of ways". I'm not sure how to interpret your description of our "parting of ways", other than as a gaslighting comment about who you are putting on your ignore list. A couple others here seem to be engaging in that behavior. I'm here to discuss my primary art.

Can you clarify your meaning here? I don't want to get the wrong idea.