SwedishChef
Orange Belt
Of course nothing compares to REX KWON DO!!!
Black Tiger Fist
Green Belt
:cheers:clfsean said:Yeah, but you gotta admit a great shot when delivered ... no matter by whom. You just gotta. It's all fair... He spanked you on that one...
But because of that, he buys... the first round is on him... :drinkbeeropcorn:
Cheers!
It's all good, if i wasn't doing Black Tiger, i'd be doing Choy Lay Fut for sure!
jeff
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
Hi.
My name is Paul. Good to meet you all. I am an instructor of Choy Lay Hoi
Fut Hung Gar. Known on the west coast as Kung-Fu San Soo. San Soo is a five family system, containing elements from both Choy Lay Fut and Hung gar.
The Hung gar was added late in the game and it's contribution to my art was the "form" or Tai Chi.
I have read your discussion and would like to add that the main ingredient for success in any system is the cooperation of student and teacher and the example and experience that the technique brings to the mat.
A student surely can not develop an art that took many hundreds of men, hundreds of years to develop, nor would it be ideal to reinvent the wheel.
In my experience and using a military model, strategies are played out with various tactics and the technique is a way that student implements these ideas. So the art forms the structure in which the learning process is conducted and the mentor, student relationship builds the foundation and explores the art.
Most Kung Fu arts were understood and "invented" many years ago. So the student 'learns' and the teacher learns how to 'teach' more effectively.
So the better the communication and focus on learning, the faster the progress.
Presuming that an instructor knows his stuff, the teacher student relationship is a very important ingredient.
So with the above in place, the particular art is not the most important thing. The more we learn the better we become, but it must be in a focused environment or one can wander aimlessly.
Any how, nice to talk to you all.
PB
My name is Paul. Good to meet you all. I am an instructor of Choy Lay Hoi
Fut Hung Gar. Known on the west coast as Kung-Fu San Soo. San Soo is a five family system, containing elements from both Choy Lay Fut and Hung gar.
The Hung gar was added late in the game and it's contribution to my art was the "form" or Tai Chi.
I have read your discussion and would like to add that the main ingredient for success in any system is the cooperation of student and teacher and the example and experience that the technique brings to the mat.
A student surely can not develop an art that took many hundreds of men, hundreds of years to develop, nor would it be ideal to reinvent the wheel.
In my experience and using a military model, strategies are played out with various tactics and the technique is a way that student implements these ideas. So the art forms the structure in which the learning process is conducted and the mentor, student relationship builds the foundation and explores the art.
Most Kung Fu arts were understood and "invented" many years ago. So the student 'learns' and the teacher learns how to 'teach' more effectively.
So the better the communication and focus on learning, the faster the progress.
Presuming that an instructor knows his stuff, the teacher student relationship is a very important ingredient.
So with the above in place, the particular art is not the most important thing. The more we learn the better we become, but it must be in a focused environment or one can wander aimlessly.
Any how, nice to talk to you all.
PB
I
Infrazael
Guest
I've read, from San Soo websites, that it has no connection with CLF. They said the connection with CLF was often mistrubuted (is that a word?) with the "Choy" in San Soo Kung Fu's name.
From all the San Soo people I talk about they also say it has no connection with CLF.
Any help? BTW CLF is not part of the 5 Ancestors Fist.
Is San Soon the same thing as Wu Zhu Quan? (5 Ancestors Fist).
From all the San Soo people I talk about they also say it has no connection with CLF.
Any help? BTW CLF is not part of the 5 Ancestors Fist.
Is San Soon the same thing as Wu Zhu Quan? (5 Ancestors Fist).
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
Jimmy H. Woo knew much about the history of the Art of San Soo, as it related to his immediate family. His life was dedicated to it and he took his place as caretaker. Lo Sifu, however knew little about the history of the art before his family came into its possession. The art was created by three warrior families and resided in a Monastery, its walls 6 foot thick. Hidden and taught only to monks or nobility with lots of money, the art remained shrouded in mystery. Its technique improved by many men over many hundreds of years. The Tsoi-Li-Hoi and Fut families were represented. The later system of Hung Ga was added later. The spellings and pronounciation is in another dialect, (Sayup). Tsoi (or Choy) techniques involved Punches and Kicks, Li (or Lay) -Leverage and throws, Hoi - Nerve and Pass points, Fut - Mind, Hung ga - form and physical dynamics.
The best I can make of it is that San Soo is rooted very strongly in Choy Lay Fut, however took on the attributes of Jimmy's family after it left the monastery. His art is strong in areas of leverage and inside movement not typified by Choy Lay Fut. It is like the contributions of the Quan Yin Monastery and Jimmy's Family took the evolution of the art down a differing path. Also, the San Soo, is the fighting or combat of Choy Lay Fut and its technique is not widely known, anyway.
San Soo is a highly evolved system that could not have been developed by a few or by borrowing from other systems. It is a working and practical system and its method of training uses many reinforcing techniques.
I don't know too much about the monastery or whether Jimmy's distant relative was given the art or outright, took it with him when he left the monastery. Jimmy did not teach it in a religious context, but in a refreshing and scientific manner. He taught americans, and for this I am pleased.
I have taught now for 28 years and enjoyed every moment of it.
PB
The best I can make of it is that San Soo is rooted very strongly in Choy Lay Fut, however took on the attributes of Jimmy's family after it left the monastery. His art is strong in areas of leverage and inside movement not typified by Choy Lay Fut. It is like the contributions of the Quan Yin Monastery and Jimmy's Family took the evolution of the art down a differing path. Also, the San Soo, is the fighting or combat of Choy Lay Fut and its technique is not widely known, anyway.
San Soo is a highly evolved system that could not have been developed by a few or by borrowing from other systems. It is a working and practical system and its method of training uses many reinforcing techniques.
I don't know too much about the monastery or whether Jimmy's distant relative was given the art or outright, took it with him when he left the monastery. Jimmy did not teach it in a religious context, but in a refreshing and scientific manner. He taught americans, and for this I am pleased.
I have taught now for 28 years and enjoyed every moment of it.
PB
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
He was groomed by his great uncle Chin (Chan) Sui Heung.
You are most probably familiar with the Lineage of, say, Doc Fai Wong, a practitioner in San Francisco California.
Jimmy H. Woo (Chin Sui Dek) line differs from the CLF lineage of Doc Fai Wong. The Art of Chin Sui Dek contains two other aspects, Hoi (Poison Hand) and Hung ga (form).
The following links are helpful in understanding the lineage of San Soo ...
Master Tom Akers has done extensive documentation, studied the lineage and visited China. He documents the history and lineage of Lo Sifu Jimmy H. Woo... These pedigrees show his Father's and Mother's Line.
http://www.hingdaiwui.com/st_6.html
Master Jim Benkert summarizes our history here... It is pretty general, though.
http://www.geocities.com/san_soowushu/San_Soo.html
It is important to note that most of the development and perfection of the kung fu art happened prior to its outting from the monastery. The art developed during two distinct periods... 1. During the time prior to the monasteries' aquistion of the art. Here Warrior Families perfected their own technique and kept it very secret. 2. It's development continued behind the monastery walls, due to the efforts of hundreds of monk over hundreds of years. Futhermore when the boxer rebellion occurred and many artists fled the country, the pure art intermingled with the native forms of the arts of the country where these individuals settled. This formed other stylized systems.
Some good, some bad, usually very different.
A kung fu systems content, look and style is most influenced by what it will be used for, how it is taught, and who performs it.
This is a hard concept to get across, but basically, the art of kung fu was perfected a very long time ago. It's technique understood a very long time ago. It underwent tremendous change depending on who did it, how it was taught, in what kind of terrain it was used in and for what purpose, and how other approaches influenced it. So many systems are related but not very similar.
A modern example is how my art is being changed and influenced is by the combining of other popular approaches; notably Ultimate Fighting Technique, other Kicking styles, other monasterial systems.
My attempt is to keep my teaching true to Jimmy H. Woo and not to bring my other studies into the San Soo collective.
This post began as a discussion of the effectiveness of Hung gar. Hung ga's contribution to San Soo was the form and sturdy stance work. Hung gar is Long, Strong and very rooted.
CLF brings to the art, the famous Chinese punching combinations and the art of attack.
PB
Hope this helps.
You are most probably familiar with the Lineage of, say, Doc Fai Wong, a practitioner in San Francisco California.
Jimmy H. Woo (Chin Sui Dek) line differs from the CLF lineage of Doc Fai Wong. The Art of Chin Sui Dek contains two other aspects, Hoi (Poison Hand) and Hung ga (form).
The following links are helpful in understanding the lineage of San Soo ...
Master Tom Akers has done extensive documentation, studied the lineage and visited China. He documents the history and lineage of Lo Sifu Jimmy H. Woo... These pedigrees show his Father's and Mother's Line.
http://www.hingdaiwui.com/st_6.html
Master Jim Benkert summarizes our history here... It is pretty general, though.
http://www.geocities.com/san_soowushu/San_Soo.html
It is important to note that most of the development and perfection of the kung fu art happened prior to its outting from the monastery. The art developed during two distinct periods... 1. During the time prior to the monasteries' aquistion of the art. Here Warrior Families perfected their own technique and kept it very secret. 2. It's development continued behind the monastery walls, due to the efforts of hundreds of monk over hundreds of years. Futhermore when the boxer rebellion occurred and many artists fled the country, the pure art intermingled with the native forms of the arts of the country where these individuals settled. This formed other stylized systems.
Some good, some bad, usually very different.
A kung fu systems content, look and style is most influenced by what it will be used for, how it is taught, and who performs it.
This is a hard concept to get across, but basically, the art of kung fu was perfected a very long time ago. It's technique understood a very long time ago. It underwent tremendous change depending on who did it, how it was taught, in what kind of terrain it was used in and for what purpose, and how other approaches influenced it. So many systems are related but not very similar.
A modern example is how my art is being changed and influenced is by the combining of other popular approaches; notably Ultimate Fighting Technique, other Kicking styles, other monasterial systems.
My attempt is to keep my teaching true to Jimmy H. Woo and not to bring my other studies into the San Soo collective.
This post began as a discussion of the effectiveness of Hung gar. Hung ga's contribution to San Soo was the form and sturdy stance work. Hung gar is Long, Strong and very rooted.
CLF brings to the art, the famous Chinese punching combinations and the art of attack.
PB
Hope this helps.
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
Very good CLFSean.
I guess that Hung gar's effectiveness depends a lot on the student.
This aspect of kung fu is particularly good for some of a particular mindset or body type as well.
I teach a system that represents the whole ball 'o wax. How men fight. That way a little goes a long way.
As far as lineage goes.
Jimmy H. Woo enjoyed great success, both in the teaching of San Soo over many, many years and the due to the 'fad' that was kung fu during the 70's and 80's. His decision to teach Americans brought him many students and wealth.
He didn't talk much about the relationship to other systems. I think this was basically to keep control of his student base. Comparisons are often odious. I think keeping students focused on their base art is important. I don't do myself a favor by telling my students how wonderful other arts and instructors are. Not a great business technique.
I am not very interested in the history. I know that what I teach could not be invented by one man or otherwise aquired by collecting from other systems. So, I don't question San Soo's roots only hope that my teaching is effective and that my student's learn. I am a technician, that's my mindset. Master Akers is into the Chinese Language, Culture and History of Lo Sifu.
Each has his specialty.
But anyway the circularity and symmetry of Kung Fu is marvelous. Both in terms of balance and as a fighting tool. These systems are very intelligent.
Good luck in your training.
PB
I guess that Hung gar's effectiveness depends a lot on the student.
This aspect of kung fu is particularly good for some of a particular mindset or body type as well.
I teach a system that represents the whole ball 'o wax. How men fight. That way a little goes a long way.
As far as lineage goes.
Jimmy H. Woo enjoyed great success, both in the teaching of San Soo over many, many years and the due to the 'fad' that was kung fu during the 70's and 80's. His decision to teach Americans brought him many students and wealth.
He didn't talk much about the relationship to other systems. I think this was basically to keep control of his student base. Comparisons are often odious. I think keeping students focused on their base art is important. I don't do myself a favor by telling my students how wonderful other arts and instructors are. Not a great business technique.
I am not very interested in the history. I know that what I teach could not be invented by one man or otherwise aquired by collecting from other systems. So, I don't question San Soo's roots only hope that my teaching is effective and that my student's learn. I am a technician, that's my mindset. Master Akers is into the Chinese Language, Culture and History of Lo Sifu.
Each has his specialty.
But anyway the circularity and symmetry of Kung Fu is marvelous. Both in terms of balance and as a fighting tool. These systems are very intelligent.
Good luck in your training.
PB
It works for me. Anything specific you want to know? It's demanding art with a steep learning curve in the beginning stages of training. You'll catch the bug and love it or the stance work will make you quit.
Extremely effective against all other forms of martial arts: Karate,TKD,Judo,JuJitsu,KravMaga, Muay Thai,TaeBo & other Kung Fu styles. Especially Choy Lay Fut & Wing Chun.
Only joking - it's up the the individual practitioner to make the most of 'x' style of martial art.
Cead Bua
White Belt
So you include eye rips, groin grabs, breaks, and full out techniques in your sessions?
No. Sparring with training brothers & sisters is for learning & working techniques against a uncooperative opponent. Contact ranges from light to full, all depends upon what the both of you are looking to train.
What you describe above is pure fantasy.
"Hung gar is Long, Strong and very rooted."
This is incorrect. Hung-Ga places equal emphasis on short hand technique as well. The long-arm techniques were added later to the system by Wong Fei-Hung's relationshio with Tibetan White Crane/Hop-Ga Master, Wong Yun-Lum.
"This aspect of kung fu is particularly good for some of a particular mindset or body type as well."
Hung-Ga, with its long and short ranges,Five Animal techniques, and Five Elements was developed and refined so as to be able to be taught to ALL body types. The Internal aspects of the Ng Ying Kuen develops the mindset.
I teach a system that represents the whole ball 'o wax. How men fight
ALL systems, if they were passed down intact teach this. No need to reinvent the wheel.
This is incorrect. Hung-Ga places equal emphasis on short hand technique as well. The long-arm techniques were added later to the system by Wong Fei-Hung's relationshio with Tibetan White Crane/Hop-Ga Master, Wong Yun-Lum.
"This aspect of kung fu is particularly good for some of a particular mindset or body type as well."
Hung-Ga, with its long and short ranges,Five Animal techniques, and Five Elements was developed and refined so as to be able to be taught to ALL body types. The Internal aspects of the Ng Ying Kuen develops the mindset.
I teach a system that represents the whole ball 'o wax. How men fight
ALL systems, if they were passed down intact teach this. No need to reinvent the wheel.
