Anyone know anything about it? I've never seen anything else like it except for some of TWC's stuff so I'm wondering if it actually came from anything or if someone just made it up (I'm sorry, but you're gonna have a hell of a time convincing me that any martial art evolved completely in secret)
Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
- Thread starter Marnetmar
- Start date
I've trained it since around 2004, directly under the head of the system since 2005. It's a private style that was kept within the Chan family up until my current teacher who was the first person not blood related to inherit it. We're pretty different from TWC, but there's a small amount of overlap with what we do and several of the Yip Man/Leung Jan styles out there. If you have any specific questions I can probably field them.
Take a look at some of the Siu Nim Tao differences here:
Take a look at some of the Siu Nim Tao differences here:
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There's a lot of info to be had here:
Reading Room
and a video going over our family tree:
However I'll give you the TLDR version:
By oral legend we come from Tahn Sau Ng, the guy who founded the red boat opera society. After founding the red boats he got found out by the government and went into hiding with the Chan family who had financed the red boat opera effort, in return he taught them WC. It's connected in that we all supposedly come from that same source.
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Not even close.
zuti car
Blue Belt
Some time ago I was talking with Jehovah witness . He tried to convert me and I explained to him that his "religion" is a mix of Adventist teaching , Judaism and some stuff invented by their founder . Although he was able to see all historical data , well documented he still tried to convince me that his "religion" was founded by Jesus Christ and it is only , true path of Christianity . It was fun for a while but when he stated to be nervous and aggressive , constantly repeating same things over and over again I gave up and left . Similar thing we have in Wing Chun , people will believe in almost everything . For me , if there is no evidence to support some story then it is highly probable that story is fake .
The blade cuts both ways, your version also has no proof. Long story short, you're just talking trash with no evidence.
zuti car
Blue Belt
I have seen some HFY techniques , if there wasn't "HFY" in title i would be sure that was TWC because thous things I saw were identical with things I have practiced while I was still involved in TWC . Asking for evidence is not equal with "talking trash" . If you have any real evidence to support your story be free to share them .I am open minded and will accept everything that can be proved , if not I will base my opinion on what I know and see , and what see is slightly modified and overtheorized TWC .
VT_Vectis
Orange Belt
Can I ask what makes you believe that TWC is the progenitor? It's entirely possible William Cheung encountered a HFY practitioner and absorbed their teachings into a slightly modified, undertheorised version of a Hung Fa Yi... Considering the only person who says that Yip Man taught modified wc to everyone but William Cheung, is William Cheung himself, I find this far more likely.
Disclaimer; I've trained in neither HFY or TWC, this is just me commenting on the above posts.
zuti car
Blue Belt
I know some things , private things I will not discuss on a public forum ,which led me to a conclusion that HFY is nothing more than modified TWC . And of course there is obvious similarity or maybe "identical" is better word in techniques , stances, angles of entry , footwork ...
About modified vs "original" story , nobody believe in that any more and I quit TWC because it is incomplete and superficial , whole thing is created to catch certain type of people . Same thing I can see in HFY ,although HFY approach is much more sophisticated and founfder put much more effort to make his story attractive and fit for present time .
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zuti car
Blue Belt
It is not , purpose of the forum is to allow people to discus and sometimes people will have different opinions . Now , if you say that you have the best , the purest , the most complete wing chun ,then you should be able to back that up with some kind of evidence , and I mean real evidence .
The problem with this theory is timeframe. William Cheung is quite a bit older than Garrett Gee. So very unlikely that Cheung learned from Gee. Maybe Cheung learned from Garrett Gee's teacher, or someone else in the HFY lineage, but if he did this would be good support for the HFY story and I would think Garrett Gee would have something to say about it. Because a problem with HFY is that there seems to be no one else in the world teaching it other than Garrett Gee and his students.
According to Garrett Gee: Hong Guan Biao's real name was Chu Tian Zou and was adopted by the Chen family, who were big in the opera. He took the Chen family name and later joined the Hong Guan Hui (Red Turban Society) and became known as Chen Biao. He became the leader and trained 1,000's in the art of Hong Hua Quan (Red Flower Fist) during the period of 1862-1874. Then retired in 1874 and called his art Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun Quan. The Hong Hua Yi states that their art comes from ancestor "Speck of Dust" of Henan Shaolin and his/her disciple Tan Shou Wu. Here's the problem.....
The Hong Guan Hui was founded by Chen Kai He and Li Wen Mao. Chen Kai He was the leader of the Guangdong Tian Di Hui and Li Wen Mao was a Yong Chun ancestor. In fact Li Wen Mao was a practitioner of Yong Chun Bai He Quan and a member of the Opera. He practiced a Sanshi method of Yong Chun Bai He Quan, which is believed to be the same method as taught to Liang Yi Dai (one of Liang Zan's teachers). Li Wen Mao was the leader/founder of the Hong Guan Hui (Red Turban Society) who's members originally dressed in elaborate opera costumes and started the "Red Turban Rebellion". Later, some members not being able to afford the elaborate costume, dressed in a red sash, a red bandanna and carried a red pole.
Now this is not to discredit Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun stylists and their system or lineage, I'm simply stating facts. Li Wen Mao was the leader of the Hong Guan Hui and he was a 3rd generation student of Yong Chun Bai He Quan founder Fang Qiniang. So what he taught to his "Red Turban Army" was Bai He Quan in Sanshi method, the same as taught to the famous Dr. Liang Zan by Liang Yi Dai. It could not have come from "Speck of Dust" and Tan Shou Wu, it came from Fang Qiniang. All legends state that Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan created the 3 standard forms from the Sanshi material, which came from Fang Qiniang. The term "Red Bandanna Biao" may very well be legitimate and if he was real, he would have been a student/follower of Li Wen Mao, only to later create his version of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun Quan when he retired in 1874. Huang Hua Bao would have most definitely been his senior, Li Wen Mao was senior to Huang Hua Bao, it also adds credence to the oral legends of "Village" methods of Yong Chun being called "Hong Hua Yi" as it was a method not yet codified. Also, if Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan are credited with creating the 3 standard forms....How did Hong Guan Biao obtain them? They are not listed in the ancestry of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun. If he crossed trained with someone from Huang Hua Bao's lineage why weren't they given credit? Why does no one else practice this art? Not to say it isn't legitimate as far as Yong Chun is concerned just saying that IMO it is simply a modified family style with a suspect history trying to appear, in that ever so grand Chinese fashion, older and more original for marketing purposes.
The Hong Guan Hui was founded by Chen Kai He and Li Wen Mao. Chen Kai He was the leader of the Guangdong Tian Di Hui and Li Wen Mao was a Yong Chun ancestor. In fact Li Wen Mao was a practitioner of Yong Chun Bai He Quan and a member of the Opera. He practiced a Sanshi method of Yong Chun Bai He Quan, which is believed to be the same method as taught to Liang Yi Dai (one of Liang Zan's teachers). Li Wen Mao was the leader/founder of the Hong Guan Hui (Red Turban Society) who's members originally dressed in elaborate opera costumes and started the "Red Turban Rebellion". Later, some members not being able to afford the elaborate costume, dressed in a red sash, a red bandanna and carried a red pole.
Now this is not to discredit Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun stylists and their system or lineage, I'm simply stating facts. Li Wen Mao was the leader of the Hong Guan Hui and he was a 3rd generation student of Yong Chun Bai He Quan founder Fang Qiniang. So what he taught to his "Red Turban Army" was Bai He Quan in Sanshi method, the same as taught to the famous Dr. Liang Zan by Liang Yi Dai. It could not have come from "Speck of Dust" and Tan Shou Wu, it came from Fang Qiniang. All legends state that Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan created the 3 standard forms from the Sanshi material, which came from Fang Qiniang. The term "Red Bandanna Biao" may very well be legitimate and if he was real, he would have been a student/follower of Li Wen Mao, only to later create his version of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun Quan when he retired in 1874. Huang Hua Bao would have most definitely been his senior, Li Wen Mao was senior to Huang Hua Bao, it also adds credence to the oral legends of "Village" methods of Yong Chun being called "Hong Hua Yi" as it was a method not yet codified. Also, if Huang Hua Bao and Liang Zan are credited with creating the 3 standard forms....How did Hong Guan Biao obtain them? They are not listed in the ancestry of Hong Hua Yi Yong Chun. If he crossed trained with someone from Huang Hua Bao's lineage why weren't they given credit? Why does no one else practice this art? Not to say it isn't legitimate as far as Yong Chun is concerned just saying that IMO it is simply a modified family style with a suspect history trying to appear, in that ever so grand Chinese fashion, older and more original for marketing purposes.
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