How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Tez3]

So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?

He didn't say that at all.

Are you going to post up your MMA fight record? Or a video of you fighting MMA? If you are telling us that MMA is the way to test fighters and/or styles then you will have done it yourself to be so sure MMA is the best so please do tell us what your fight record is and who you have fought. You cannot in all honesty disrespect a fighter's record who has got in the cage with some of the best unless you have a better record against better opponents...or even the same opponents. You cannot tell us that WC is useless or Aikido or karate unless you can prove that in the cage or ring, posting videos of others proves nothing. We need to see you, yourself, personally fighting in MMA pro rules fights to show us that in fact all these people who have spent years training in their styles are actually wrong.
It isn't a challenge, it isn't a dare, it's a polite request for your fight record and fight videos.

 

[Reeksta]

So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?

No that's obviously not what I'm saying, please stop being facetious.
What I'm saying is that arts like wing chun train for a wider range of scenarios and discourage it's practitioners from certain courses of action which could get you into trouble if your opponent has a weapon or some friends with him. As Tez mentioned, it's a different mindset, with different tools, for a different set of objectives. However, some of those things a WC practitioner trains not to do make perfect sense if you take away those variables.
For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
It's a compromise.

 

[Transk53]

Are you actually asking that question, or just trying to answer it yourself again? Think it is fairly obvious that you are not going to get the answer you seek. Continuing is just futile. Wing Chun is not going to work in the cage simply because that is not what it is for. In the same way football players are not going to use a rugby ball.

By disagreeing you have pretty much substantiated my post. Now you are just arguing. Absolutely pointless.

 

[Mephisto]

So you're saying that a WC exponent has more trouble taking down a single unarmed opponent than a single armed opponent?

Exactly and they can't fight a guy without killing him, cause there's no rules on the street you know

 

[Tez3]

Exactly and they can't fight a guy without killing him, cause there's no rules on the street you know

Don't they have to licence their hands and record them with the police as well as give warnings before attacking?

 

[Mephisto]

He didn't say that at all.

Are you going to post up your MMA fight record? Or a video of you fighting MMA? If you are telling us that MMA is the way to test fighters and/or styles then you will have done it yourself to be so sure MMA is the best so please do tell us what your fight record is and who you have fought. You cannot in all honesty disrespect a fighter's record who has got in the cage with some of the best unless you have a better record against better opponents...or even the same opponents. You cannot tell us that WC is useless or Aikido or karate unless you can prove that in the cage or ring, posting videos of others proves nothing. We need to see you, yourself, personally fighting in MMA pro rules fights to show us that in fact all these people who have spent years training in their styles are actually wrong.
It isn't a challenge, it isn't a dare, it's a polite request for your fight record and fight videos.

Why does someone have to be a MMA fighter to think that it's one of the best methods for testing ones art? As I mentioned earlier, I'm not an MMA fan and I don't train MMA. I also don't claim the best not do I care if I'm the best. I don't need to discredit MMA as "just sport" because it's not what I do. It's the best legal means we have to test ones art, that's all. Just give credit where it's due.

By disagreeing you have pretty much substantiated my post. Now you are just arguing. Absolutely pointless.

Why are you quoting your self?

 

[Tez3]

Why does someone have to be a MMA fighter to think that it's one of the best methods for testing ones art? As I mentioned earlier, I'm not an MMA fan and I don't train MMA. I also don't claim the best not do I care if I'm the best. I don't need to discredit MMA as "just sport" because it's not what I do. It's the best legal means we have to test ones art, that's all. Just give credit where it's due.

I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the only way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the only way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art

Two things;

1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.

2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.

While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.

 

[ballen0351]

Two things;

1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.

2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.

While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.

You pointed out his record to be a DB disrespectful jerk. The best part is you don't even compete. Lol your a coward who hides behind a keyboard.

 

[Hanzou]

No that's obviously not what I'm saying, please stop being facetious.
What I'm saying is that arts like wing chun train for a wider range of scenarios and discourage it's practitioners from certain courses of action which could get you into trouble if your opponent has a weapon or some friends with him. As Tez mentioned, it's a different mindset, with different tools, for a different set of objectives. However, some of those things a WC practitioner trains not to do make perfect sense if you take away those variables.
For example, my sifu dislikes when I slip punches and duck underneath for a takedown. His logic is that, if the opponent had a knife that I hadn't seen, then he could easily slice me with it as he retracted his arm. This makes sense from a self defence perspective but if I'm limiting my responses in this way, then in a situation where there's no risk of weapons or multiple opponents, I'm naturally at a disadvantage compared to someone who has trained without limiting their options in this way and who has trained specifically for the situation we are currently in.
It's a compromise.

Interesting how you keep saying that you're not saying something, and then go on to say it again.

Look, we do everything you describe above in Bjj. Instead of grinding my elbow in someone's face as I go for an Americana, I'll just place my elbow next to their head. Instead of doing a full mount, I'll do a knee on belly. Instead of going to the mat to perform an armbar after a throw, i'll stay standing and do a standing arm bar.

Again, I can modify my Bjj for a variety of situations. Why can't you do the same with WC?

 

[Hanzou]

You pointed out his record to be a DB disrespectful jerk. The best part is you don't even compete. Lol your a coward who hides behind a keyboard.

Actually I did compete, just not in MMA.

Just so we're clear though, it's disrespectful to post someone's fight record of its bad?

 

[ballen0351]

Actually I did compete, just not in MMA.

Prove it

 

[ballen0351]

Actually don't I don't care. I don't even believe you actually train at all so your irrelevant to this and all conversations from this point forward

 

[Tez3]

Two things;

1. I don't do MMA, I do Bjj. Bjj is a core MA within MMA, so I'm not seeing how me never fighting in a MMA match contradicts my arguments.

2. You don't need to practice the sport to point out a crappy record in the sport. I don't play American Football but I can still point out that The Raiders and Titans are terrible football teams with crappy records. You brought the guy up, I just pointed out his record.

While your damage control was entertaining, it was also irrelevant.

Well and there we have it. "MMA is the best way to test your art, the only way, if it doesn't work in the cage it's crap' all this from someone who doesn't even do MMA. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce the fan boy, points out a guys record, says it's rubbish but hasn't had the guts to get in the cage himself. 'BJJ is a core MA within MMA so therefore because you do BJJ it makes you as good as an MMA fighter."
Being fit is a core part of being in the SAS but it doesn't make every fit person an SAS trooper.
Do you know, I don't think you even understand MMA, it's ethos, it's fighters, what makes them respect a fighter, what makes them respect someone who gets into the cage to fight. You really haven't a clue so all you can do is disrespect other martial arts, you do know that by blowing out other people's candles your own is not going to burn brighter don't you. Why don't you leave these nice WC people alone and go back to your BJJ, if their art doesn't work they will live with it or sort it but I think you'll find it works very well for what they want it for...it's fit for purpose.

 

[Mephisto]

I'm not sure if you are asking me or not. I would say that I don't think you have to do MMA at all, I do though and I do TMA as well, I can see the best of both worlds however Hanzou has constantly throughout the forum on various threads stated that the only way to test your art is in the cage, that MMA is the best, in fact probably the only way to train these days. He states often too that if your art doesn't 'work' in the cage then your art is rubbish. Comments like 'TMAs haven't changed for centuries' as a put down aren't conducive to understanding and having a proper conversations on martial arts. Disrespecting a fighter because he assumes that the fighter's record means he's a bad fighter is not the way we do things in MMA or TMA, so I'm assuming Hanzou has a better record fighting better fighters. If one is going to constantly tell other martial artists their style is useless and cannot compete in the cage one needs to back up what one says in my opinion or perhaps one should listen instead to what those martial artists are telling them about their art

I guess I can see where you're coming from. I put a lot of weight on MMA training and training all ranges in general if your goal is to become a good all around fighter. The important thing is to test what you know against a resisting opponent. I think wc has some value and if someone were to use it successfully in the ring I think many more would appreciate wc. You don't have to be the best. What's weong with admitting that another training style is better? Most of us don't train to fight, we train for the challenge and numerous other reasons aside from fighting. MMA fighters could benefit from some scenario or street geared training but I think a solid grappling and striking foundation is more important than a street geared foundation. You can't "street" your way out of every confrontation but you surely can grapple or strike.

 

[Reeksta]

Interesting how you keep saying that you're not saying something, and then go on to say it again

At what point in the statement I made do I say that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to fight someone who is armed rather than unarmed (which is what you're accusing me of)? Seriously, where?

 

[Tez3]

I guess I can see where you're coming from. I put a lot of weight on MMA training and training all ranges in general if your goal is to become a good all around fighter. The important thing is to test what you know against a resisting opponent. I think wc has some value and if someone were to use it successfully in the ring I think many more would appreciate wc. You don't have to be the best. What's weong with admitting that another training style is better? Most of us don't train to fight, we train for the challenge and numerous other reasons aside from fighting. MMA fighters could benefit from some scenario or street geared training but I think a solid grappling and striking foundation is more important than a street geared foundation. You can't "street" your way out of every confrontation but you surely can grapple or strike.

Again I don't know whether you are addressing me because you think that's what I think? I ask because that's not what I think at all.

As for MMA fighter's benefitting from some scenario or street geared training, you do know that they will have done that in their other martial arts training or will do it in self defence training if they want to? MMA training is specifically training to fight, MMA fighters are martial artists, most here in the UK have belts, usually Dan grades in other styles such as TKD, karate, Judo etc.

 

[Hanzou]

Well and there we have it. "MMA is the best way to test your art, the only way, if it doesn't work in the cage it's crap'

I never said that.

all this from someone who doesn't even do MMA. Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce the fan boy,

Yes, im a rather big fan of MMA.

points out a guys record, says it's rubbish but hasn't had the guts to get in the cage himself.

On what planet is 14-35 a good record?

'BJJ is a core MA within MMA so therefore because you do BJJ it makes you as good as an MMA fighter."

Yep, never said that either.

Do you know, I don't think you even understand MMA, it's ethos, it's fighters, what makes them respect a fighter, what makes them respect someone who gets into the cage to fight. You really haven't a clue so all you can do is disrespect other martial arts, you do know that by blowing out other people's candles your own is not going to burn brighter don't you.

You got all that from me pointing out a fighter's lackluster MMA record?

 

[Tez3]

I never said that.



Yes, im a rather big fan of MMA.



On what planet is 14-35 a good record?



Yep, never said that either.



You got all that from me pointing out a fighter's lackluster MMA record?

 

[Hanzou]

At what point in the statement I made do I say that a wing chun practitioner finds it easier to fight someone who is armed rather than unarmed (which is what you're accusing me of)? Seriously, where?

In your previous response. Essentially you're making the "my art is for self defense, not the cage" argument.

It's a pretty silly argument.