"How we've won the war in Iraq"

CoryKS

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2557630.ece

Interesting article from the Times of London. More optimistic than I dare hope for, but with some of the other articles that have been coming out lately, one has to wonder.

The line to discredit the article because Murdoch owns the Times starts below. No pushing or shoving, please.
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Update: Here are a couple of the other articles I was talking about:
A Quiet Triumph May Be Brewing
Speaker Pelosi and the Missing Ramadan Spike
 

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu

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In my opinion a very interesting and insightful look into what's happening in Iraq. Could see this one striking up an awful lot of controversy!
 

Blotan Hunka

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In my opinion a very interesting and insightful look into what's happening in Iraq. Could see this one striking up an awful lot of controversy!​

Hell. What were gonna get is the people who hate the president coming forward with the typical arguments without reading this article or debating its points.

It comes down to how we define "victory". By this guys definition, we may have it. Others may refuse to even state a definition out of politics.
 

JBrainard

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Hell. What were gonna get is the people who hate the president coming forward with the typical arguments without reading this article or debating its points.

Well, I will freely admit that I hate the president, but the article was well written and intelligent. If things are actually looking that hopefull, thank God.
 

Big Don

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Well, I will freely admit that I hate the president, but the article was well written and intelligent. If things are actually looking that hopefull, thank God.
Things are looking that hopeful and have been for sometime. Maybe you should read a few milblogs. It might give you a different, albeit a non-leftist point of view.
 

JBrainard

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Things are looking that hopeful and have been for sometime. Maybe you should read a few milblogs. It might give you a different, albeit a non-leftist point of view.

Well, as has been said before in many different ways: What you see as truth is only your point of view. I really have no interest in reading milblogs as they will be just as biased as the "leftist" material that will tell you that the war is still a train reck. As I said, if things are really that hopefull, I'm glad. But I'm not going to take one group's opinion as "the word of God," so to speak.
 

Big Don

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Yeah, don't believe the men on the ground, believe the pundit who's never missed a meal
 

michaeledward

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I don't think this is what we were told 'victory' would look like, when we started .. ..

from April to June 2007, Iraq as a whole averaged 12.8 hours of electricity per day, while Baghdad averaged just 9.2. Oil production is down by 20% since the invasion. Many of the country’s professionals – doctors, teachers, academics – have left. There has been much local sectarian cleansing, with about 1m people internally displaced since 2003 and up to another 1m externally displaced.
The US-led coalition has lost almost 4,100 lives, with many more wounded. Much money has been stolen and some of Iraq’s priceless historical legacy looted. In parts of the country, local disorder has opened opportunities to criminals and fundamentalists. Much of the police force is militantly Shi’ite and many units are loyal to militias.

Less electricity, less oil, no professionals, millions of people internally and externally displaced, extensive looting and corruption, local "disorder" and police forces loyal to tribal sects, rather than elected leadership.

I suppose, if you keep moving the goal posts, eventually anything can look like success. (I am reminded of Monty Python's Black Knight )

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But, OK, we won.... Get our soldiers out of there.
 

Sukerkin

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Yep, the best way to obtain victory is to redefine it.

It comes to something when the supposedly democratic powers invade a country to secure a foothold in the oil rich Middle East ... excuse me ... move to eliminate an obscene dictator put in power by the West ... excuse me ... eradicate an oppressive regime for human rights violations who possesses weapons of mass destruction ... yes, that'll fly ... where was I?

Oh yes, the West invades a supposedly backwards country and makes things worse whilst siphoning off billions of dollars targeted for infrastructure rebuilding?

Surely not? There'd be an outcry when this was made public wouldn't there?


Oh wait. It was and there wasn't.

Draw your own moral conclusions.
 
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CoryKS

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Yep, the best way to obtain victory is to redefine it.

It comes to something when the supposedly democratic powers invade a country to secure a foothold in the oil rich Middle East ... excuse me ... move to eliminate an obscene dictator put in power by the West ... excuse me ... eradicate an oppressive regime for human rights violations who possesses weapons of mass destruction ... yes, that'll fly ... where was I?

Oh yes, the West invades a supposedly backwards country and makes things worse whilst siphoning off billions of dollars targeted for infrastructure rebuilding?

Surely not? There'd be an outcry when this was made public wouldn't there?


Oh wait. It was and there wasn't.

Draw your own moral conclusions.

Or, one could define victory as removing Iraq as a continuing threat to the region so that we could finally withdraw our presence from Fraudi Arabia, which was one of the specific points of contention outlined in Osama bin Laden's declaration of war against us. You know, the "root causes" that the left urged us to address after 9/11, only what they actually meant was to leave Israel to die on the vine.

I don't care one whit about WMD in Iraq, and never did. That was always - always - a MacGuffin to keep the ankle-biters distracted so they wouldn't interfere with the job. And while we didn't "put the dictator in power", yes - we dealt with him as an "ally", as much as anyone could consider an Arab state an ally. Because Iran was, and remains, the larger threat. But we'll address that soon, I have no doubt.

The victory is what it always was, and has been achieved. Our troops are out of the Magic Kingdom, and will eventually be out of Iraq. By which road...? It remains to be seen.

Some will continue to dwell on things like WMD, Halliburton and "Mission Accomplished". They are free to do so. It's just that I don't have a lot of faith in their ability to draw conclusions, moral or otherwise.
 

Blotan Hunka

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See...everybody can get snarky when someone challenges their world view.
 

Sukerkin

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Oh snap. Tell us how you really feel! :rofl: :)

ROFL. It is pretty incredible how no sleep combined with a bottle of good wine can wreck your grammar.

My apologies if it did come over as 'snarky' tho'. In my head it was more ranting Pythonesque, Basil Fawltian, disbelief but obviously the keyboard filtered all that out.

Also, running sentences on like that with ellipses ... I'm so embarassed ... but that was what was supposed to represent the 'torrent' :D.

More seriously, as to the core of the thread, the whole concept of there being a 'victory' in such an operation as the invasion of Iraq is a fraught one.

Militarily, there's absolutely no argument that the Iraqi armed forces with their second-string, Soviet cast-off, materiel didn't have a prayer. In some ways, as I've said elsewhere, it may even work as an 'object lesson' for other nations in the region.

As has ever been the case for millenia tho', it's one thing to break stuff and take ground and quite another to govern someone else's country in the longer term.

To speak of 'victory' in such an endeavour is problematic and is inherently skewed by points of view. From my standpoint, the excercise was ill-considered from the inception (other than as a field test for 'modern age' weaponry) and I trully believe that, assuming 'we' survive, history will judge the scales to be balanced negatively on this issue i.e. more harm will come of it than good.
 

Big Don

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Militarily, there's absolutely no argument that the Iraqi armed forces with their second-string, Soviet cast-off, materiel didn't have a prayer. In some ways, as I've said elsewhere, it may even work as an 'object lesson' for other nations in the region.
Before Operation Desert Storm, if you'll recall, Iraq had the fourth largest standing army in the world. Prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom, there were liberal pundits predicting TEN THOUSAND US casualties in the first weeks.
 
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CoryKS

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Before Operation Desert Storm, if you'll recall, Iraq had the fourth largest standing army in the world. Prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom, there were liberal pundits predicting TEN THOUSAND US casualties in the first weeks.

It's also interesting to note that all these dictators that the US is supposedly propping up are using Russian materiel. Which would make sense if the stuff actually worked, but... well, let's just say that I hope Iraq kept the receipt for those night vision goggles and radar jammers. Oh, and Syria might want to have a word with them about their anti-aircraft systems too.
 

Sukerkin

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That's a marvellous link, Blotan that I think strongly suggests that an area previous ravaged by violence is now much more settled.

I don't want to hop about like a Devils Advocate gainsaying 'good news' for the sake of it but a thought did occur to me as I read through the initial parts of the article (I have yet to finish it but I shall) viz what happens to those people when the Allied troops are pulled out?

The divisive and violent factions are still there after all - they're just hedged away.

As someone has already said in related threads, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't by both staying or leaving.

What a mess. I'm so very glad that I don't have any say in trying to sort it all out :(.
 

Marginal

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Hell. What were gonna get is the people who hate the president coming forward with the typical arguments without reading this article or debating its points.

It comes down to how we define "victory". By this guys definition, we may have it. Others may refuse to even state a definition out of politics.
The whole point of Iraq is to wage a perpetual war against a vague nebulous enemy entity that by definition can never be defeated. It's a glorious success.
 

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If by success we mean the people that set out to make money on the lives of others made money, then its going swimmingly.
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