How to flow out of a pinned hand.

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,136
Reaction score
2,979
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
There is a very clear example of chasing hands in the OP video that started this thread. Go back and watch it again. It happens in the first few seconds.
When your opponent controls both of your arms, you have to free your arm/arms before you can do anything. But if your opponent only controls one of your arms, your free arm can just punch on his head. The only issue is when you punch, your opponent may use your leading arm to jam your punching arm. So in order to have a perfect counter, you still have to free your arm first.
 
Last edited:

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
When your opponent controls both of your arms, you have to free your arm/arms before you can do anything. But if your opponent only controls one of your arms, your free arm can just punch on his head. The only issue is when you punch, your opponent may use your leading arm to jam your punching arm. So in order to have a perfect counter, you still have to free your arm first.
Nothing here I disagree with.

However, just to be clear, you do not have to disengage your hands for "a perfect counter". You can remain in contact (not "free") but you do have to be the one in control, so at the opportune moment you can slip through your opponent's defenses to strike. Lat sau jik chung.

This kinda reminds me of an old saying in our group, "Chi sau isn't so much about sticking ...as slipping!
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,136
Reaction score
2,979
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
You punch. Your opponent blocks. You use your punching hand to grab his blocking arm.

Is this a "chasing hand"? If I can control your arms, you can't punch me any more. It's a good strategy IMO.

From a striker point of view, it's better to punch on your opponent's head than to control his arms. From a grappler point of view, it may be better the other way around.
 
Last edited:

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
From a striker point of view, it's better to punch on your opponent's head than to control his arms. From a grappler point of view, it may be better the other way around.
Why not have the best of both worlds? Stick to and control his arms to create an opening for a strike or throw without struggling and fighting against his force? Isn't that exactly the type of skill exercises like chi-sau were originally intended to develop?
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
530
Reaction score
103
Location
NJ, USA
You can "redefine" things to make it fit your narrative...but it doesn't change the fact that you chased hands first in order to effect is center.
chasing hands is BS its over and a used meaningless term... its like calling someone a racist who you dont know anything about.
 

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
233
Reaction score
162
chasing hands is BS its over and a used meaningless term... its like calling someone a racist who you dont know anything about.
Chasing hands is an established term that is part of the chasing center concept. It is used for Wing Chun practitioners who are not attacking and chasing center. If a practitioner prioritizes attacking the opponents arms when there is a clear opportunity to hit, they are indeed chasing hands. In other words, it is doing the opposite of Lat Sau Jik Chung.

It is a very real concept, with a profound meaning. To identify chasing hands is to identify the importance of chasing center. Chasing hands and chasing center both contribute to the same understanding of the Wing Chun systems principles. One simply cannot exist without the other because they are two sides of the same concept. The only way chasing hands can be BS, is if chasing center is also BS.

I often find that those who complain the loudest about chasing hands being an overused or meaningless term, are usually the ones who chase hands the most. And to me, that speaks in volumes.

Respectfully, I also get the impression that you are not receiving the responses you were hoping for in regards to this post and your Center Point theory in general. You have shared this video on almost every Wing Chun forum on the internet and you have been given extremely similar feedback. I can truly understand any frustration that you might be feeling.

In my humble opinion, this is really a great opportunity for growth. You are in a good position to reassess your approach, and further refine your ideas about centerline based on what the Wing Chun community is telling you. Peer review can be a powerful tool and learning experience when used positively, I encourage you to take advantage of the insight given to you.
 

Oily Dragon

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
767
Reaction score
294
I'm not a mean spirit so I'm not going to harangue this poor guy.

The hard truth about bridging in the Southern arts is that they are only truly learned from experience, as opposed to theories. The OP might benefit from examining the life of Wong Shun Leung, someone who actually used these theories in combat regularly. Not in his living room.

If you really want recognition for mastery of Wing Chun or any other martial art, make good students who can use it well in practice. Youtube videos are kind of weak by comparison.

 

wckf92

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,429
Reaction score
420
Chasing hands is an established term that is part of the chasing center concept. It is used for Wing Chun practitioners who are not attacking and chasing center. If a practitioner prioritizes attacking the opponents arms when there is a clear opportunity to hit, they are indeed chasing hands. In other words, it is doing the opposite of Lat Sau Jik Chung.

It is a very real concept, with a profound meaning. To identify chasing hands is to identify the importance of chasing center. Chasing hands and chasing center both contribute to the same understanding of the Wing Chun systems principles. One simply cannot exist without the other because they are two sides of the same concept. The only way chasing hands can be BS, is if chasing center is also BS.

I often find that those who complain the loudest about chasing hands being an overused or meaningless term, are usually the ones who chase hands the most. And to me, that speaks in volumes.

Respectfully, I also get the impression that you are not receiving the responses you were hoping for in regards to this post and your Center Point theory in general. You have shared this video on almost every Wing Chun forum on the internet and you have been given extremely similar feedback. I can truly understand any frustration that you might be feeling.

In my humble opinion, this is really a great opportunity for growth. You are in a good position to reassess your approach, and further refine your ideas about centerline based on what the Wing Chun community is telling you. Peer review can be a powerful tool and learning experience when used positively, I encourage you to take advantage of the insight given to you.

Eloquently put Callen!
My first thought on seeing his vids is that he is trying to create his own system or style. Which is fine. But as you mentioned, if he is calling what he is doing "wing chun" without the core concept of Lat Sau Jik Chung...then he is actually NOT doing "wing chun". Just my .02. Thanks. And again, good post.
 

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
233
Reaction score
162
But as you mentioned, if he is calling what he is doing "wing chun" without the core concept of Lat Sau Jik Chung...then he is actually NOT doing "wing chun".
Personally, Im starting to get the impression that the OPs "Center Point" theory might really just be his way of coming to the realization that the chasing center concept 餈賢耦 in Wing Chun is about the opponents centerline, not our own centerline. I fear that in an attempt to think outside the box, he is also in danger of mistakenly reinventing the wheel.

While the OPs breakthrough may not necessarily be new or unique, the take-away I get is that its a new discovery for him and ultimately in my opinion that can be a good thing. However, it is never a good idea to sacrifice core concepts in the process of personal discovery because it can put the functionality of the system at a risk.

This is a solid reminder to all of us. We need to be cautious not to place so much value on our own ideas that they become a justification for destroying the foundation of what the Wing Chun system is teaching us.
 
Last edited:

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
This is a solid reminder to all of us. We need to be cautious not to place so much value on our own ideas that they become a justification for destroying the foundation of what the Wing Chun system is teaching us.
Well put.

My foundational background is in WT with Leung Ting back in the 80s. Many who have experience with the EWTO WT today would be disappointed with the simplicity of what Leung Sifu taught us back then. LT had a real dislike for "funny movements" that were not practical and direct. I copied a few and thought they were so cool. Once I made the mistake of doing one in front of my sifu. To put it mildly, he was not impressed. :(

Since then I've worked with various people and have invented a few of those "funny movements" myself. For example, I came up with a chi-sau entry into an arm-drag that is a great lead into flanking or even taking a person's back. But you know, unless the situation is just ....perfect, it really is kinda like chasing hands. That is to say, in almost any situation where I can pull it off, I'd probably be better off just punching my opponent. Lat sau jik chung. ;)
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Eloquently put Callen!
My first thought on seeing his vids is that he is trying to create his own system or style. Which is fine. But as you mentioned, if he is calling what he is doing "wing chun" without the core concept of Lat Sau Jik Chung...then he is actually NOT doing "wing chun". Just my .02. Thanks. And again, good post.
In the last 20 years or so we've all learned that "Wing Chun" is more diverse, with more branches and interpretations than I ever imagined back in the 70s and 80s. So I would not be quick to say that anybody else was not doing "Wing Chun".

I would say that a lot of what I see isn't at all like the Wing Tsun/Chun I learned. :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,136
Reaction score
2,979
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
However, it is never a good idea to sacrifice core concepts in the process of personal discovery because it can put the functionality of the system at a risk.
When you do a hip throw, you violate the Taiji principle that you should keep your head vertical upward. Does that mean if you train hip throw, you just put the Taiji system at a risk?

IMO, whatever MA skill that you have developed is yours. It doesn't belong to your MA system. The day when you die, if all you can do is what your teacher taught you, you may be a good copy machine, but you have not contributed anything to the MA world.

The person in the following clip doesn't believe the throwing skill can put the WC system at a risk.

For the throwing art, if you can control your opponent's leading arm, you can apply 70% of your throws. So to chase your opponent's leading arm is a good strategy. If you pull your opponent's leading arm, his body will follow.

 
Last edited:

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
233
Reaction score
162
The person in the following clip doesn't believe the throwing skill can put the WC system at a risk.
Wang Zhi Peng is demonstrating that it is possible to blend Sanshou, and he does it well. He is also not sacrificing (omitting, deleting, neglecting, ignoring, contradicting, re-defining, throwing out, etc...) any core WSLVT principles in exchange for his own ideas.

And to stay focused on the topic of the OP's post, we're not talking about blending or adding anything. We're talking about the importance of a cornerstone method of the Wing Chun system that appears to be left out. Unfortunately the OP has mistakenly removed (sacrificed) the core principle of Lat Sau Jik Chung 拇渲 for the pursuit of his own theory. Neglecting this principle absolutely places the functionality of the Wing Chun system directly at risk.
 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
767
Reaction score
294
Wang Zhi Peng is demonstrating that it is possible to blend Sanshou, and he does it well. He is also not sacrificing (omitting, deleting, neglecting, ignoring, contradicting, re-defining, throwing out, etc...) any core WSLVT principles in exchange for his own ideas.

And to stay focused on the topic of the OP's post, we're not talking about blending or adding anything. We're talking about the importance of a cornerstone method of the Wing Chun system that appears to be left out. Unfortunately the OP has mistakenly removed (sacrificed) the core principle of Lat Sau Jik Chung 拇渲 for the pursuit of his own theory. Neglecting this principle absolutely places the functionality of the Wing Chun system directly at risk.
That's because he doesn't understand Snake or Crane style. How the hell is he going to become a dragon without understanding his human body?

Ip Chun understands.


1638321729957.png
 

Callen

Blue Belt
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
233
Reaction score
162
That's because he doesn't understand Snake or Crane style. How the hell is he going to become a dragon without understanding his human body?
Which could quite possibly hark back to our earlier discussion regarding the Western mindset. So many details are often lost in translation.
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
530
Reaction score
103
Location
NJ, USA
In your other post, "Do You Have a Progressive Mindset?", you defined your Center Point theory as locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent (quoted above). You have now introduced a new element of distributing the center point or balance point of the body, which in your Center Point theory, is a center point below the navel (near the Dan Tian). You mention mass of the opponent as a defining factor in one post, but then take it away in another.

I'm not trying to be critical or demeaning in any way; but I guess I'm having a difficult time understanding what your Center Point theory really is in terms of its uniqueness to the Wing Chun system, and how it relates to the opponent's centerline differently than attacking center. Also, now that I know this video is an example of your Center Point theory, some questions do come to mind:

  • In what specific ways does this video exemplify the utilization of your Center Point theory? How exactly does your Center Point theory function uniquely to the Wing Chun system in this scenario?

  • In regards to how the Wing Chun system functions as a whole, what are the unique benefits and differences of focusing 2 inches below the navel (where you said your Center Point theory focuses) as opposed to attacking the opponent's center?

  • How is your Center Point theory an improved Wing Chun method?

  • How does your Center Point theory train and develop all of the concepts and principles of the Wing Chun system?
center point when someone is standing up is slightly below the navel. there are many ways to effect this point.. One way is by having your opponent over extend himself which moves his centerpoint.. Just attacking the COM means your oppoenet is still balanced and cn defend ant attack by using C,P,T you cant launch a proper attack is your not balanced.. its like a drunk man trying to stay on his feet. C.P.T is the continuation or or you can use as an add on to the standard wing chun procedure. There is no conflict when using C.P.T.
 

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
1,062
center point when someone is standing up is slightly below the navel. there are many ways to effect this point.. One way is by having your opponent over extend himself which moves his centerpoint.. Just attacking the COM means your oppoenet is still balanced and cn defend ant attack by using C,P,T you cant launch a proper attack is your not balanced.. its like a drunk man trying to stay on his feet. C.P.T is the continuation or or you can use as an add on to the standard wing chun procedure. There is no conflict when using C.P.T.
After reading this thread and others about this 'center point theory' I still have no idea what it's supposed to mean.

Where's the beef?
 

APL76

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
201
Reaction score
81
Location
Canberra
center point when someone is standing up is slightly below the navel. there are many ways to effect this point.. One way is by having your opponent over extend himself which moves his centerpoint.. Just attacking the COM means your oppoenet is still balanced and cn defend ant attack by using C,P,T you cant launch a proper attack is your not balanced.. its like a drunk man trying to stay on his feet. C.P.T is the continuation or or you can use as an add on to the standard wing chun procedure. There is no conflict when using C.P.T.
If I am understanding what you wrote here correctly- are you are advocating CPT as taking control of the opponent's balance, rather than simply controlling their centreline?

So to elucidate what I think you are meaning I can relate what I have felt from my Sifu quite often:

When he deals with any particular attack, he wont just deflect (or whatever) the oncoming attack and strike back simultaneously, he actually does one/a combination of uprooting your stance and/or taking away your centre of balance so that you have to readjust your footing to avoid falling over (if indeed he isn't sending you flying away/throwing you towards the ground in the first place). Additionally, this is done, by him, in response to whatever excessive force/over extension/hardness he feels in your attacks and defences (so the old "deflect oncoming force, follow retreating force and where you feel no force rush in and attack"- Its how my Sifu translates it from Cantonese).

Where he adds the sticky leg work into this its even harder to keep your footing and while he might toy with you, and so you actually can readjust and try to deal with any oncoming attack, if applied in real time it'd be all over and done with in an instant. When he is just playing around with you the sensation is like what I imagine it would feel like to be a human marionet puppet.

If this is what you are advocating as CPT then cool, but it's already in Wing Chun. I learned both Yip Man and Sum Nung Wing Chun from my Sifu so I don't know if its something specific to one, the other, or both; but its certainly in at least one of them (my money would be on the Sum Nung style if not both).
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
530
Reaction score
103
Location
NJ, USA
If I am understanding what you wrote here correctly- are you are advocating CPT as taking control of the opponent's balance, rather than simply controlling their centreline?

So to elucidate what I think you are meaning I can relate what I have felt from my Sifu quite often:

When he deals with any particular attack, he wont just deflect (or whatever) the oncoming attack and strike back simultaneously, he actually does one/a combination of uprooting your stance and/or taking away your centre of balance so that you have to readjust your footing to avoid falling over (if indeed he isn't sending you flying away/throwing you towards the ground in the first place). Additionally, this is done, by him, in response to whatever excessive force/over extension/hardness he feels in your attacks and defences (so the old "deflect oncoming force, follow retreating force and where you feel no force rush in and attack"- Its how my Sifu translates it from Cantonese).

Where he adds the sticky leg work into this its even harder to keep your footing and while he might toy with you, and so you actually can readjust and try to deal with any oncoming attack, if applied in real time it'd be all over and done with in an instant. When he is just playing around with you the sensation is like what I imagine it would feel like to be a human marionet puppet.

If this is what you are advocating as CPT then cool, but it's already in Wing Chun. I learned both Yip Man and Sum Nung Wing Chun from my Sifu so I don't know if its something specific to one, the other, or both; but its certainly in at least one of them (my money would be on the Sum Nung style if not both).
Yes, C.P.T is about controlling and manipulating your opponents balance point not about using Centerline line theory.. Centerline Theory is very specific and does not have anything to do with C.P.T of course it does not mean one can not be doung both at the same time both. But they have different functions and priorities..
 

APL76

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
201
Reaction score
81
Location
Canberra
Yes, C.P.T is about controlling and manipulating your opponents balance point not about using Centerline line theory.. Centerline Theory is very specific and does not have anything to do with C.P.T of course it does not mean one can not be doung both at the same time both. But they have different functions and priorities..
Fair enough.

"centerline Theory is very specific and does not have anything to do with C.P.T" I think this is where I'd deviate in agreement with you. Certainly I can see how they can and possibly should be separated earlier-intermediately, and indeed its easier to learn the elements of both separately; however they end up unified at the higher levels (much like everything else in Wing Chun).
 
Top