How to defeat a Wrestler

OP
Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
12
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Oh well to be honest its not crosstraining Si-je shoots down. Crosstraining can be beneficial...

The part we disagree on is a new martial artist someone who has never studied any martial arts begins to learn martial arts for the first time an starts learning Tiger and Crane, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido. I don't think this would be as productive as someone learning Japanese Jiujitsu for three years before adding a new art such as Muay Thai. An then later add a third art. I think this way you have a great foundation. Now if you have studied WC for like five years already and you want to learn Hapkido and TKD I think that would be more beneficial if you have the time and money.

I see both pro's and con's to cross training.


Pro's
More than one art to draw from
Use different techniques to defeat an oppponent
Extra training can increase stamina

Con's
Start to get the arts confused or mesh together.
More money to learn two or more at the same time
Time taking away from perfecting one art.

Just to name a few. But learning another art could you more techniques to draw from an add to your fighting ability. As for Si-Je I believe her main point was BJJ is a comabative sport. An training BJJ will not prepare you for an actual fight. It will actually give you a false sense of confidence which could get you killed in the street. As for me I dont feel either way since Most BJJ people dont just study BJJ but also Muay Thai,Judo and boxing. So to me if their BJJ lacks something they will make up for it with Judo or MT. But this is my opinion.


But the whole idea of which style is better is nonsense...there are no unbeatable styles. Maybe an unbeatable fighter. But not style...WC is not even a style of Kung Fu...its a system.

As for BJJ...I never liked ground fighting much...I really dont care for it. I respect every martial art including Tae Kwon Do which many fighters today have no respect for. But Just because I respect an art doesn't mean I would like to learn it. So for me BJJ is merely something I dont like as perference. It has nothing to do with how valid or effective the art is.


Oh I agree, and have from the start....just funny seeing you post it given your (and Si-Je) tendency to shoot down cross training in one thread and prop it up in another, hence the irony.
 

kaizasosei

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
1,180
Reaction score
24
Interesting perspective and some really good points you make about the pros and cons, Yoshi...
but, please, check out this guys wrestling. I think one thing that is good is watching wrestling and taking it very seriously, then actually sparing(wrestling) with a wrestler. Also i think it is good to try to think up different strategies.


j
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
Oh well to be honest its not crosstraining Si-je shoots down. Crosstraining can be beneficial...

The part we disagree on is a new martial artist someone who has never studied any martial arts begins to learn martial arts for the first time an starts learning Tiger and Crane, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido. I don't think this would be as productive as someone learning Japanese Jiujitsu for three years before adding a new art such as Muay Thai. An then later add a third art. I think this way you have a great foundation. Now if you have studied WC for like five years already and you want to learn Hapkido and TKD I think that would be more beneficial if you have the time and money.

Who is advocating a new student, one thats never trained, start taking up 5 arts at the same time? I know for a fact you will not see a post like that from me. I have always maintained that a student should wait until the advanced ranks such as brown or black before taking something else on.

I see both pro's and con's to cross training.


Pro's
More than one art to draw from
Use different techniques to defeat an oppponent
Extra training can increase stamina

Wow, we agree on something.

Con's
1)Start to get the arts confused or mesh together.
2)More money to learn two or more at the same time
3)Time taking away from perfecting one art.

1) Only if the person is new. There is nothing wrong with meshing them together. As I've said, there've been many times that I've started a Kenpo tech., and finished it with a lock from Arnis.

2) Nothing is cheap.

3) Why is time a factor? Learning is a never ending journey. There shouldn't be a race to get something done.



Just to name a few. But learning another art could you more techniques to draw from an add to your fighting ability. As for Si-Je I believe her main point was BJJ is a comabative sport. An training BJJ will not prepare you for an actual fight. It will actually give you a false sense of confidence which could get you killed in the street. As for me I dont feel either way since Most BJJ people dont just study BJJ but also Muay Thai,Judo and boxing. So to me if their BJJ lacks something they will make up for it with Judo or MT. But this is my opinion.

BJJ will prepare you more than you think. While it, like ALL arts, have their weak spots, it will prepare you best, in the event you find yourself on the ground in a fight. Fact of the matter is, is that you can't predict what will happen in a fight. If you find yourself on the ground in a fight, and don't have the ground skills, well, you're going to wish you had.


But the whole idea of which style is better is nonsense...there are no unbeatable styles. Maybe an unbeatable fighter. But not style...WC is not even a style of Kung Fu...its a system.

Then tell me...why do you start all these art vs. art threads? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. Perhaps you should take a look at this, specifically section 4.1. You're not trolling are you?????????

As for BJJ...I never liked ground fighting much...I really dont care for it. I respect every martial art including Tae Kwon Do which many fighters today have no respect for. But Just because I respect an art doesn't mean I would like to learn it. So for me BJJ is merely something I dont like as perference. It has nothing to do with how valid or effective the art is.

Then don't train it!! You keep harping on BJJ when the ground comes up, because I know for a fact, I've mentioned other ground arts, such as Judo and Sambo and wrestling. Hey, there're arts that I'm not fond if, yet, I still feel that someone may be able to gain something from them.
 
OP
Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
12
Location
St.Louis Missouri
You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree. The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.


But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.

As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.

As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins.


Who is advocating a new student, one thats never trained, start taking up 5 arts at the same time? I know for a fact you will not see a post like that from me. I have always maintained that a student should wait until the advanced ranks such as brown or black before taking something else on.



Wow, we agree on something.



1) Only if the person is new. There is nothing wrong with meshing them together. As I've said, there've been many times that I've started a Kenpo tech., and finished it with a lock from Arnis.

2) Nothing is cheap.

3) Why is time a factor? Learning is a never ending journey. There shouldn't be a race to get something done.





BJJ will prepare you more than you think. While it, like ALL arts, have their weak spots, it will prepare you best, in the event you find yourself on the ground in a fight. Fact of the matter is, is that you can't predict what will happen in a fight. If you find yourself on the ground in a fight, and don't have the ground skills, well, you're going to wish you had.




Then tell me...why do you start all these art vs. art threads? Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. Perhaps you should take a look at this, specifically section 4.1. You're not trolling are you?????????



Then don't train it!! You keep harping on BJJ when the ground comes up, because I know for a fact, I've mentioned other ground arts, such as Judo and Sambo and wrestling. Hey, there're arts that I'm not fond if, yet, I still feel that someone may be able to gain something from them.
 

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree. The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.


But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.

As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.

As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins.


BJJ may not look as pretty to the untrained eye as say, aikido or JJJ because everything they do is live (two high level BJJ'ers tech.'s do look pretty smooth and sweet though). EVERY traditional art looks far sloppier and not how it is trained when it comes to knocking slobber out of someones mouth, just look at Wing Chun and the Cheung vs Boztepe (not to beat this dead horse again, just an example of my point). Same with Karate, TKD, or whatever else.

I still do not believe a new student is going to be confused or hurt by cross training. Heck, I studied Math, English, and History in school and never confused any of it with eachother (except in Algebra. I always felt the need to check my grammar with all them dang letters and numbers! LOL). I would agree if the hypothetical student had very bad short term memory or not enough time to practice each art regularly oustide of class....but I feel that way about anyone studying just one art as well. If you don't practice, you are not benefitting 100%.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
18,827
Reaction score
4,407
Location
Covington, WA
BJJ may not look as pretty to the untrained eye as say, aikido or JJJ because everything they do is live (two high level BJJ'ers tech.'s do look pretty smooth and sweet though). EVERY traditional art looks far sloppier and not how it is trained when it comes to knocking slobber out of someones mouth, just look at Wing Chun and the Cheung vs Boztepe (not to beat this dead horse again, just an example of my point). Same with Karate, TKD, or whatever else.

I still do not believe a new student is going to be confused or hurt by cross training. Heck, I studied Math, English, and History in school and never confused any of it with eachother (except in Algebra. I always felt the need to check my grammar with all them dang letters and numbers! LOL). I would agree if the hypothetical student had very bad short term memory or not enough time to practice each art regularly oustide of class....but I feel that way about anyone studying just one art as well. If you don't practice, you are not benefitting 100%.
I agree with this completely. While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point. I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial. It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some. However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all. There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.

To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with. The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them. However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.

I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train. In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing. For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience. We learn math by doing math. We learn to read by reading. We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports. Wrestlers improve by wrestling.

But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature. I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long. "How do we defeat a wrestler?" Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers. Simple as that. On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory. Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise... kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
You have an interesting post. On many of things you said I agree.

Ok.

The things I disagree on arent worth mentioning.

No, probably not.


But as for someone new...The con's all pretain to someone new learning many different arts at once. But as for someone who studied lets say 20 years in kenpo or hung gar. Cross train five styles away. It won't really matter then because you already have strong art that you fight with.

As for BJJ...Personally I just don't like how it looks...Thats all I can say.

As for style vs style...thats nonsense...more like fighter vs fighter and the one with more skills and experience wins.

If you don't like it, don't train it. Its that simple. There are other ground arts to pick from. As for the style vs. style....maybe you should practice what you preach, seeing that you tend to post those types of threads, and ask questions of that nature. I've pointed a few out to you already.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
I agree with this completely. While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point. I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial. It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some. However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all. There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.

Hey Steve,

I hear what you're saying. Its just my opinion. I'm sure others will have varying experiences. :) I suppose in the end, it'll come down to what each person can handle. You may have one that is a fast learner and capable of learning 2 different arts at the same time, and you may have another who can't. Either way, whatever works best. :)

To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with. The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them. However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.

I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train. In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing. For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience. We learn math by doing math. We learn to read by reading. We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports. Wrestlers improve by wrestling.

But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature. I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long. "How do we defeat a wrestler?" Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers. Simple as that. On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory. Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise... kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.

Well said. Can't add anything to that! :)
 
OP
Yoshiyahu

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
12
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Excellent post Steve...I agree if you don't train in given art I suggest you train with Wrestlers. If someone wants to cross train an art I would suggest an art that gives you a little bit of both.

So yea I think MMA would be the next best step if you don't spar and do drills with wrestlers. Atleast in MMA you can constantly spar wrestlers.


I agree with this completely. While I think that MJS, Jarrod and many others make a ton of sense when it comes to the subject of crosstraining, I disagree with them on one point. I don't believe that having a "base" art is necessary or beneficial. It's certainly a legitimate way to go and might work better for some. However, I don't believe that training in two discreet arts at the same time, even as a beginner, would be confusing at all. There are positives and negatives to each approach, but just etching into stone that "Thou shalt have a base art, or thou art wrong," is in my opinion a mistake.

To keep this on topic, to defeat a wrestler... if you want to only use wing chun, I would recommend that you look for quality wrestlers to train with. The better the wrestlers, the better you will be able to use your training against them. However you might do it and regardless of technique used, defending against a quality wrestling take down, feeling what people mean by "heavy hips" and experiencing that freakish core strength makes will be all the difference.

I've said this many times in other discussions, but HOW you train anything is more important, IMO, than WHAT you train. In every other endeavor humans choose to learn, we learn by doing. For some reason, martial arts are the only thing I can think of where we often attempt to learn something complex without any kind of actual experience. We learn math by doing math. We learn to read by reading. We play baseball, soccer, or golf to gain experience in those sports. Wrestlers improve by wrestling.

But for some reason, when it comes to discussions like this, "How to defeat a wrestler," we forget this fundamental bit of human nature. I don't know. Maybe I'm oversimplifying the topic, but it seems to me that this thread could have been 2 posts long. "How do we defeat a wrestler?" Well, we would need to train to some degree WITH wrestlers. Simple as that. On a regular basis, we would need to figure out a way to get with some wrestlers and try to apply the theory. Without that crucial practicum, the entire thing would remain an academic exercise... kind of like learning to cook by memorizing cookbooks, but never stepping into the kitchen.
 
Top