How to deal with circular punches?

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's much easier to deal with straight punch such as jab and cross. You can always use the circular punch to knock down your opponent's straight punching arms. It's much harder to deal with circular punch because no matter what you do, your opponent's circular punch can knock down your blocking arms.

So what's the best way to deal with circular punch? Of course you can kick, dodge, and step back. But are there other ways?

Your thought?

 

[Buka]

I sure there’s more than a few ways to deal with it, obviously depending on how you’ve trained it and maybe dealt with it in actuality.

Me, I’m usually going in. The actual position of both of us and obviously the particular circumstance would dictate how.

One of the things I’ve used was timing a circular punch of my own, but not at his head, but into one of his circular punches itself - the inside fold of my elbow hitting into the inside fold of his elbow while I’m sliding in that direction.

As the arms collide, you rip his ash to the ground. They never expect it, never experienced it, it messes up their balance and their will.

But if he’s much taller I’m double legging or tackling him. Unless there’s a sweep opening...which I’m not usually bright enough to take advantage of.

 

[lklawson]

It's much easier to deal with straight punch such as jab and cross. You can always use the circular punch to knock down your opponent's straight punching arms. It's much harder to deal with circular punch because no matter what you do, your opponent's circular punch can knock down your blocking arms.

So what's the best way to deal with circular punch? Of course you can kick, dodge, and step back. But are there other ways?

Your thought?

Yeah. I disagree. "Circular" punches take longer and are easier to see coming but can pack a lot of rotational torque. Linear punches are faster-to-target and both harder to block and harder to see coming.

It's the same thing with swords too. Cuts vs Thrusts.

This book has an interesting discussion on why the author thinks that the straight is superior:

Lulu
Lulu

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

I my mind all punches are circular. Because even with a straight punch, I power it with torso rotation.

At least that’s how I see it.

 

[lklawson]

I my mind all punches are circular. Because even with a straight punch, I power it with torso rotation.

At least that’s how I see it.

Jack Dempsey saw a distinct difference between, say, a "falling step" lead and a "Shoulder Whirl," which would still be considered a linear punch by most.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

Jack Dempsey saw a distinct difference between, say, a "falling step" lead and a "Shoulder Whirl," which would still be considered a linear punch by most.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I think I can intuitively understand what a falling step is. Could you describe a shoulder whirl?

 

[lklawson]

I think I can intuitively understand what a falling step is.

It's pretty much just a standard drop step linear punch.



Allanson-Winn Lead Off by lklawson

Dempsey example:

Could you describe a shoulder whirl?

From Dempsey's Championship Fighting

14. Straight Punching from the Whirl
You give whirling motion to your body-weight by whirling the shoulders. One shoulder whips forward while the other whips back. Muscles of
the shoulders, back, stomach and legs cooperate in achieving the whirl. Also, the process is assisted by shifting the weight from one leg to the
other. You need concern yourself only with the shoulder motions. Nature will supervise the assisting muscles and movements.



You can best understand the straight-punching whirl by feeling it out-without using a target. Stand in the middle of a room with your feet even
(on sideways line) and comfortably separated. Place your relaxed hands in easy guarding positions before each breast (Figure 18A).

Turn your shoulders easily to your own left and, at the same time, extend your right fist to the chin of an imaginary opponent. As your right fist
moves toward the opponent's chin, turn the fist so that it will land palm-down.

Meanwhile, your left shoulder is well back, and your relaxed left hand is still in front of your left breast. Aim at left hand at the spot occupied by
your extended right fist.

Now, SUDDENLY WHIRL YOUR SHOULDERS TO YOUR RIGHT, AND LET THE SHOULDER-WHIRL SHOOT YOUR LEFT FIST
STRAIGHT AT THE SPOT JUST OCCUPIED BY YOUR RIGHT FIST.

Be sure you let the whirl shoot your fist instead of letting your projecting left arm pull your left shoulder around. As your left fist shoots at the
imaginary target, turn your hand so that the fist lands palm-down. Meanwhile, your right hand returns to its relaxed guarding position before your
right breast.

Practice that shoulder whirl on the bag. Shoot one fist, then the other-bang!-bang!-bang!-bang!-until you are striking out with a rhythmic
motion of the shoulders. Your shoulders should be swinging back and forth like the handle bars of a bicycle. Do not move the feet. Be sure that
you explode each punch, MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOUR SHOULDERS ARE DRIVING THE PUNCHES; THAT THE PUNCHES ARE NOT
PULLING THE SHOULDERS.

That position-with the feet on an even line-is ideal for throwing straight punches from the whirl.

Unfortunately, however, that ideal position is not your normal punching position. Consequently, we'll have to return to your normal punching
stance and try the whirling straight punches from that position.



In the middle of the room, take your normal stance, with your hands in normal guarding positions. Practice the shoulder whirl easily at first, without the bag. As your shoulders whip from side to side, you'll note that your left leg acts as a pivot, above which your torso and shoulders
whirl (Figure 19A and B).

If you toe-in slightly with the left foot, you'll get greater freedom in the whirl from left to right-the whirl that shoots out your left fist. And that
particular whirl needs any assistance it can get. When you're in normal position, your guarding left shoulder is so well forward that you can't give
it much whirl in shooting the left jab. You can't unless you draw back the left shoulder. And if you do that you may get your brains knocked out.
It's okay to use a slight toe-in with the left foot; but keep it slight. If you toe-in sharply, you may sprain or break your left ankle when you do the
falling step. Moreover, the more freedom you give the whirl for your left jab with the toe-in, the less freedom you allow the reverse whirl for your
straight right. That's true despite the fact that your left leg is serving as a pivot.

EACH SINGLE STRAIGHT PUNCH OF THE WHIRLING TYPE WHETHER A LEAD OR A COUNTER MUST BE DELIVERED FROM THE
NORMAL PUNCHING POSITION.

However, the instant you get into a rapid-fire, straight-punching exchange with an opponent, your good old right foot again will come to the
rescue. That right foot will creep up until it's even or nearly even with your left. You'll be blazing away with both fists from the ideal whirling
position. You'll be getting just as much whirl for your straight lefts as for your rights. Practice the normal and the ideal on the bag.
WHIRLING STRAIGHT PUNCHES FOR THE BODY ARE DELIVERED IN THE SAME MANNER AS THOSE FOR THE HEAD. The fists land
palm-down.

You recall that in straight stepping punches to the head, the fist landed in an upright position, but that in whirling straight punches to the head
the fist landed palm-down. Why the change?

The reason for the change is this: the average whirling straight punch is not straight. It's usually looped slightly or considerably. And the fist
approaches its head target from at least a slight angle. Because of the angle, greater solidity is achieved by landing with the fist palm-down.
Some instructors favor the palm-down landing for straight head blows "because turning the fist while in motion gives a snap to the punch."
That's true. For a chap who doesn't know how to explode properly, that turning snap would inject a little dynamite into the blow. However, your
explosion is not dependent upon a wrist turn.

What did I mean when I said whirling straight punches are not straight?

I meant that the non-step whirling straight punch is an impure punch, and that the harder you hit with it, the more nature tries to purify it by
giving it a loop. I'll explain that.​

He has a lot more to say about the shoulder whirl as a power generation method elsewhere in his book, but this is as applied to the straight punch.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

It's pretty much just a standard drop step linear punch.



Allanson-Winn Lead Off by lklawson

Dempsey example:



From Dempsey's Championship Fighting

14. Straight Punching from the Whirl
You give whirling motion to your body-weight by whirling the shoulders. One shoulder whips forward while the other whips back. Muscles of
the shoulders, back, stomach and legs cooperate in achieving the whirl. Also, the process is assisted by shifting the weight from one leg to the
other. You need concern yourself only with the shoulder motions. Nature will supervise the assisting muscles and movements.



You can best understand the straight-punching whirl by feeling it out-without using a target. Stand in the middle of a room with your feet even
(on sideways line) and comfortably separated. Place your relaxed hands in easy guarding positions before each breast (Figure 18A).

Turn your shoulders easily to your own left and, at the same time, extend your right fist to the chin of an imaginary opponent. As your right fist
moves toward the opponent's chin, turn the fist so that it will land palm-down.

Meanwhile, your left shoulder is well back, and your relaxed left hand is still in front of your left breast. Aim at left hand at the spot occupied by
your extended right fist.

Now, SUDDENLY WHIRL YOUR SHOULDERS TO YOUR RIGHT, AND LET THE SHOULDER-WHIRL SHOOT YOUR LEFT FIST
STRAIGHT AT THE SPOT JUST OCCUPIED BY YOUR RIGHT FIST.

Be sure you let the whirl shoot your fist instead of letting your projecting left arm pull your left shoulder around. As your left fist shoots at the
imaginary target, turn your hand so that the fist lands palm-down. Meanwhile, your right hand returns to its relaxed guarding position before your
right breast.

Practice that shoulder whirl on the bag. Shoot one fist, then the other-bang!-bang!-bang!-bang!-until you are striking out with a rhythmic
motion of the shoulders. Your shoulders should be swinging back and forth like the handle bars of a bicycle. Do not move the feet. Be sure that
you explode each punch, MAKE CERTAIN THAT YOUR SHOULDERS ARE DRIVING THE PUNCHES; THAT THE PUNCHES ARE NOT
PULLING THE SHOULDERS.

That position-with the feet on an even line-is ideal for throwing straight punches from the whirl.

Unfortunately, however, that ideal position is not your normal punching position. Consequently, we'll have to return to your normal punching
stance and try the whirling straight punches from that position.



In the middle of the room, take your normal stance, with your hands in normal guarding positions. Practice the shoulder whirl easily at first, without the bag. As your shoulders whip from side to side, you'll note that your left leg acts as a pivot, above which your torso and shoulders
whirl (Figure 19A and B).

If you toe-in slightly with the left foot, you'll get greater freedom in the whirl from left to right-the whirl that shoots out your left fist. And that
particular whirl needs any assistance it can get. When you're in normal position, your guarding left shoulder is so well forward that you can't give
it much whirl in shooting the left jab. You can't unless you draw back the left shoulder. And if you do that you may get your brains knocked out.
It's okay to use a slight toe-in with the left foot; but keep it slight. If you toe-in sharply, you may sprain or break your left ankle when you do the
falling step. Moreover, the more freedom you give the whirl for your left jab with the toe-in, the less freedom you allow the reverse whirl for your
straight right. That's true despite the fact that your left leg is serving as a pivot.

EACH SINGLE STRAIGHT PUNCH OF THE WHIRLING TYPE WHETHER A LEAD OR A COUNTER MUST BE DELIVERED FROM THE
NORMAL PUNCHING POSITION.

However, the instant you get into a rapid-fire, straight-punching exchange with an opponent, your good old right foot again will come to the
rescue. That right foot will creep up until it's even or nearly even with your left. You'll be blazing away with both fists from the ideal whirling
position. You'll be getting just as much whirl for your straight lefts as for your rights. Practice the normal and the ideal on the bag.
WHIRLING STRAIGHT PUNCHES FOR THE BODY ARE DELIVERED IN THE SAME MANNER AS THOSE FOR THE HEAD. The fists land
palm-down.

You recall that in straight stepping punches to the head, the fist landed in an upright position, but that in whirling straight punches to the head
the fist landed palm-down. Why the change?

The reason for the change is this: the average whirling straight punch is not straight. It's usually looped slightly or considerably. And the fist
approaches its head target from at least a slight angle. Because of the angle, greater solidity is achieved by landing with the fist palm-down.
Some instructors favor the palm-down landing for straight head blows "because turning the fist while in motion gives a snap to the punch."
That's true. For a chap who doesn't know how to explode properly, that turning snap would inject a little dynamite into the blow. However, your
explosion is not dependent upon a wrist turn.

What did I mean when I said whirling straight punches are not straight?

I meant that the non-step whirling straight punch is an impure punch, and that the harder you hit with it, the more nature tries to purify it by
giving it a loop. I'll explain that.​

He has a lot more to say about the shoulder whirl as a power generation method elsewhere in his book, but this is as applied to the straight punch.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Interesting. I can envision what he describes.

It is similar to how we power our punches, but based on the description I would say not identical. We place a greater emphasis on driving the punch from the feet and legs which is where the torso rotation comes from, while his description says to turn with the shoulders. We also practice from a feet parallel position, but we will pivot back and forth on the feet, the shoulders turn all the way to sideways. That is more of a training version, the movement is exaggerated to teach the mechanics and the structure and alignment. The exaggeration can dissipate in use, as one’s skill improves.

We also do it from a stepping stance, feet don’t pivot in that case, but they still push and are considered the root of the power. Either way, our shoulders torn all the way sideways and we punch back and forth with both fists.

I can see categorizing this as a straight punch based on the path of the fist. I consider it circular, based on the torso rotation which is where the power comes from. We use the same platform for our other punches, some of which are more obviously circular in path and some of which don’t describe directly into Western boxing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Linear punches are faster-to-target and both harder to block and harder to see coming.

To use a spear to deal with a spear stabbing, there are only 2 techniques:

- clockwise circle, and
- counter clockwise circle.

As long as you move your extended stiff arm in circle (like a spear), you can always deflect a incoming straight line punch (or spear stabbing).

 

[Flying Crane]

To use a spear to deal with a spear stabbing, there are only 2 techniques:

- clockwise circle, and
- counter clockwise circle.

As long as you move your extended stiff arm in circle (like a spear), you can always deflect a incoming straight line punch (or spear stabbing).

You can chop the spear down or whip into up or side-to-side or on the diagonal. Far more than just circles.

I prefer to power it from the rear hand though and the front hand is more of a fulcrum. Although not exclusively.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can chop the spear down or whip into up or side-to-side or on the diagonal. Far more than just circles.

I prefer to power it from the rear hand though and the front hand is more of a fulcrum. Although not exclusively.

- You keep your both arms straight like 2 spears.
- You move your left arm inward as clockwise circle.
- You move your right arm inward as counter-clockwise circle.

Can your opponent straight punch still be able to reach to your face?

 

[Flying Crane]

- You keep your both arms straight like 2 spears.
- You move your left arm inward as clockwise circle.
- You move your right arm inward as counter-clockwise circle.

Can your opponent straight punch still be able to reach to your face?

I can’t envision what you are describing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can’t envision what you are describing.

Similar to this, but much faster.

 

[Flying Crane]

Similar to this, but much faster.

Gotcha. I think a straight punch can get through. It depends on a lot of things. How fast and how strong the punch is. How solid the defensive circles are. Cannot say that anything will always work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Gotcha. I think a straight punch can get through. It depends on a lot of things. How fast and how strong the punch is. How solid the defensive circles are. Cannot say that anything will always work.

Here is my testing result. I have put myself in both A's position, and also B's position.

- A commits 100% on his straight punch (not fake punch).
- B uses circle punch to knock A's arm side way. B's circular punch also affects A's balance and hurts A's arm.

After about 20 of A's punches, A will lose courage and confidence to throw straight punch any more.

I would love to hear someone who can share his testing result on this.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is my testing result. I have put myself in both A's position, and also B's position.

- A commits 100% on his straight punch (not fake punch).
- B uses circle punch to knock A's arm side way. B's circular punch also affects A's balance and hurts A's arm.

After about 20 of A's punches, A will lose courage and confidence to throw straight punch any more.

I would love to hear someone who can share his testing result on this.

I think it might be different if it is one punch or a series of charging punches.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think it might be different if it is one punch or a series of charging punches.

I have tested both. I don't like the feeling that my opponent uses circular punch to knock my straight punching arm side way to affect my balance. It's a helpless feeling. The feeling as my opponent leads me into the emptiness.

Would you mind to test this among your guys and share your testing result here?

 

[Flying Crane]

I have tested both. I don't like the feeling that my opponent uses circular punch to knock my straight punching arm side way to affect my balance. It's a helpless feeling. The feeling as my opponent leads me into the emptiness.

Would you mind to test this among your guys and share your testing result here?

I don’t have anyone to do that with right now, because of Covid and distance from my Sifu and sihing. Otherwise, yes I would.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's much easier to deal with straight punch such as jab and cross. You can always use the circular punch to knock down your opponent's straight punching arms. It's much harder to deal with circular punch because no matter what you do, your opponent's circular punch can knock down your blocking arms.

So what's the best way to deal with circular punch? Of course you can kick, dodge, and step back. But are there other ways?

Your thought?

I personally like circular punches because they are so deceptive. The reason they are deceptive is because they are effective at different ranges , different angles, and different directions. When combined with a straight technique, they almost become unstoppable. I can use a circular punch to catch a kick. I can't do the same with a straight punch.

The one thing I keep in mind about circular punches is like everything else they do have weaknesses. It takes longer to learn and more skill sets are needed to pull it off. Straight punches are faster to learn and simple.

I personally don't know what the best way is to deal with circular punches.. I've been told by a respected Sifu that the circular punch has a weak spot against kicks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah. I disagree. "Circular" punches take longer and are easier to see coming but can pack a lot of rotational torque

They do take longer but I definitely wouldn't say they are easier to see. You guys have already seen me hit people with slow circular punches. If they can't see or get out of the way of those then a person would have a difficult time if someone was throwing them at full speed and full power.

A straight punch has the opportunity to beat a straight punch, which is why I say use linear strikes to set up ans support circular strikes.

Circular strikes also have the capability of "continuous flow" That means I can miss with one punch and loop that energy into a secondary strike. I don't have to stop the flow of energy to set up the next strike which makes the additions strikes faster than the first punch.

Straight punches are still good, they just don't have the variety of circular punches. I know where a straight punch is going and what it's going to look like, but circular punches aren't so well defined.