How much did Rorion of the UFC did Rorion set up?

[RMACKD]

Does anyone think Rorion might have set up the UFC a little? Due to some evidence I have read I think he might have. One is the fact that when they were searching for competitors for the UFC, Art Davie found a strong Russian wrestling champion that was interested in competing. After Mark Schultz lasted 30 minutes wrestling with Rickson, Rorion told everyone that he sucked and didn't deserve to be in the UFC and did everything he could to prevent him from joining. He got what he wanted. Besides the fact that Mark Schultz lasted so long in wrestling Rickson there was also the fact of how the wrestler could access sambo(one of the few arts equal to bjj in groundfighting) training easily in Russia. Also mma and other vale tudo events had happened in the former soviet countries before and there was a good chance he could find someone with experience in these events. This might also be a reason why he did not invite any sambo people from Russia or any fighters from the former soviet union in general. Instead for a represenative for wrestling he got Severn who had no big ranking at the time and a sambo player from europe who was planning just do his first match. When Oleg Taktarov came to the U.S. Rorion wanted him to teach Royce leg locks. I heard a rumor about Rorion wanting Oleg to spar Royce but changed his mind when he beat several senior members with ease. When Art Davie went to check out Oleg, Rorion said that he sucked and not to let him into the U.F.C. Oleg then went on to win the UFC against much more skilled opponents than Royce. I know this might get some people angry but I am open for debate.

 

[Shogun]

I have heard that both UFC 1,2,3 and Pride 1,2 were basically ways to expose BJJ to the world, and at times, rigged. Good marketing plan I must say. The fact that no high ranked Judo, Sambo, Japanese Jujutsu, or any other style of grappling shows something. Many people are under the impression that BJJ was the first art to have extensive grappling. this is far from the truth. Judo (the forerunner of BJJ) contains a fair amount of grappling. Sambo (as mentioned) has a great ground game, coming from Judo and wrestling. Rorion could have left out good grapplers so Royce didnt have any problem. I am wondering how they chose some of the contestants....? (Scott Morrris, Steve Jennum, Jason Delucia, etc) those people werent really doing anything beforehand. (well, Jason did fight in bareknuckle in Japan a couple times)

 

[Dan Anderson]

I have heard that both UFC 1,2,3 and Pride 1,2 were basically ways to expose BJJ to the world,

...and what better way than to put mostly fighters who hadn't competed in any kind of NHB contests before. There were several here and there but in the early UFC's, mostly not. From there it's history and bjj has been the buzzword for ten years since.

Awfully damned smart, I say!

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It's certainly easier -- and much more fun -- to assume the worst when you don't have all the information.

Many...scratch that...MOST of the early UFC competitors were guys waiting in line for a chance at the Gracie Challenge...a challange match, NHB, with one of the Gracie's in their studio in Torrance. Or, if one could not make the trip to Torrance, a more local place to the challanger.

DeLucia got in because he wanted a second try. Did a challange match in Torrance with Royce, and popped him in the eye pretty good (gave Royce what I believe was his first shiner in then-recent history). The guy was slippery, and kept sliding out from Royces superior positions like a greased pig. Eventually, Royce caught him in a mounted triangle and punched him till he tapped. DeLucia returned to Boston to contemplate his match with Royce, and train for some different anti-Gracie strategies, including some grappling (prior to that, was mostly just an in-dynamite-shape kung-fu dude). By the time he was ready to come give his new tricks a try, the UFC was already in swing.

Under contract with Davies, folks in line for a challenge match, if they wanted a piece of a Gracie, had to do it in the Octagon with Royce.

Sambo? Judo? Wrestling? Watch GJJ In Action 2: big Russki shows for a challenge match with Rickson, and taps in 32 seconds. What they cut out of the tape was that the guy cried. Had been a bouncer since mid-teens, boxed, Sambo, Judo, even wrestled, never lost. Was positive he would wealk away richer and with bragging rights.

Pre-UFC, Royce goes to Philly and wrestles a pair of Giant Twins, each NCAA frestyle wrasslers (one guy in the late 300's, and the other guy weigng in at 405). Too big to get his arm around their necks, he taps them in some interesting ways. Injures one in the back, pissing off the bigger brother who tries to get revenge...before being hurt himself.

Also pre-UFC, one of the GJJ Torrance Academy students has a cousin who is a Pan-Am champ, freestyle wrestling. Takes a challenge match with Royce, convinced (as most on this board) that it's all fluff and mirrors. 3 outta 3, Royces favor, to submission. Guy had about 50 pounds on Royce (not hard at the time...his 176 weigh-in at UFC I was after a body-building and strength training regimen that brought the perpetual ectomorph up from about 160).

My buddy and I worked at a bar in Huntington Beach, CA, with a Hawaiian bruiser, convinced he could out-brawl any skinny Brazilian. By the time Eric/Mick (the same guy who weight-trained Royce for the 1st UFC and also threw his bachelor party) cajoled Kimo into taking the Gracie challenge, the whole davies contract thing kicked in, so we saw him in a UFC, instead of in an "In-Action 3" tape. Kimo, incidently, subsequently immdeiately took up the study of...wrestling? Nope. Sambo? Nope. BJJ under Moriera. Go figger.

2 things get easily forgotten in these postings:
1. The Gracies never claimed to be bullet-proof, and even Rorian foretold of the day when the large Americanswill have spent enough time training in the BJJ tricks of the trade, that they would eventually "catch" a Gracie or BJJ rep. And yes, waaaay before the UFC's, the "buzz" in the very-small (then) BJJ world was that the Russians and Shoot-fighters both had some wicked ankle and knee locks. The wiser BJJ-ists picked them up from Sambo and Shoot guys in friendly workouts, while the other guys picked up "mount-fighting" & guard tactics from the BJJ-ers in return. Syncretics are inevitable in the fighting arts, particularly when the "other guy" has something incredible that you do not. Learn it and evolve, or die, no?

2. The guys in the 1st UFC's were not the 1st or only of their kind to face the Gracies. Yes, some were selected for "star" or "draw" power, over records...Davies, after all, wanted to make money. Some, however, were just next in line for the Challenge. If you think the Gracies shied away from grapplers, get off your butt, and go to the Gracie academy in Torrance. Rorion video-taped challenge matches, so guys couldn't come back later and say they won, when in fact they did not. An academy rep could simply plug in the video and ask, "where?". In the hundreds (yes, as in many hundreds, not just one or two) of video-taped challenge matches, there are some notables that show up to fight, train, explore. All meet the same fate, sooner or later, in one way or another. Some guys more famous than Jennum took challenge matches, and have since signed up for lessons, including Norris and Seagal (not that Seagal counts, but for the record...many idjits in the US consider him a bada$$ since he's so well vested in his own confidence)

As I mentioned, syncretics are inevitable. Memory weakens with time (and boxing), but (I believe) slightly before the UFC's were in season, Judo Gene LaBelle had a grappling party every Saturday at his house in Frazier Park, CA. Each session had guys from his stable, along with one or more of the Machado brothers and thier protoge's, as well as guys from Shoot and Sambo. Do you suppose it's possible they were exchanging notes, training each others' material?

Just some grist for the mill.

Dr. Dave

 

[Shogun]

Good post.
As the announcers said as Delucia made his way to the ring in UFC 2, "the more you train with the gracies and learn their style, the more the gracie's learn".
I have been trying to plan a Jason Delucia seminar for a while. I think he is a good fighter and teacher. apart from the first person to give Royce a good shot, he was the first to "take hime down" (if you can consider it a takedown)

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dr. Dave,

Good historical data.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[RMACKD]

It's certainly easier -- and much more fun -- to assume the worst when you don't have all the information.

Many...scratch that...MOST of the early UFC competitors were guys waiting in line for a chance at the Gracie Challenge...a challange match, NHB, with one of the Gracie's in their studio in Torrance. Or, if one could not make the trip to Torrance, a more local place to the challanger.

DeLucia got in because he wanted a second try. Did a challange match in Torrance with Royce, and popped him in the eye pretty good (gave Royce what I believe was his first shiner in then-recent history). The guy was slippery, and kept sliding out from Royces superior positions like a greased pig. Eventually, Royce caught him in a mounted triangle and punched him till he tapped. DeLucia returned to Boston to contemplate his match with Royce, and train for some different anti-Gracie strategies, including some grappling (prior to that, was mostly just an in-dynamite-shape kung-fu dude). By the time he was ready to come give his new tricks a try, the UFC was already in swing.

Under contract with Davies, folks in line for a challenge match, if they wanted a piece of a Gracie, had to do it in the Octagon with Royce.

Sambo? Judo? Wrestling? Watch GJJ In Action 2: big Russki shows for a challenge match with Rickson, and taps in 32 seconds. What they cut out of the tape was that the guy cried. Had been a bouncer since mid-teens, boxed, Sambo, Judo, even wrestled, never lost. Was positive he would wealk away richer and with bragging rights.

Pre-UFC, Royce goes to Philly and wrestles a pair of Giant Twins, each NCAA frestyle wrasslers (one guy in the late 300's, and the other guy weigng in at 405). Too big to get his arm around their necks, he taps them in some interesting ways. Injures one in the back, pissing off the bigger brother who tries to get revenge...before being hurt himself.

Also pre-UFC, one of the GJJ Torrance Academy students has a cousin who is a Pan-Am champ, freestyle wrestling. Takes a challenge match with Royce, convinced (as most on this board) that it's all fluff and mirrors. 3 outta 3, Royces favor, to submission. Guy had about 50 pounds on Royce (not hard at the time...his 176 weigh-in at UFC I was after a body-building and strength training regimen that brought the perpetual ectomorph up from about 160).

My buddy and I worked at a bar in Huntington Beach, CA, with a Hawaiian bruiser, convinced he could out-brawl any skinny Brazilian. By the time Eric/Mick (the same guy who weight-trained Royce for the 1st UFC and also threw his bachelor party) cajoled Kimo into taking the Gracie challenge, the whole davies contract thing kicked in, so we saw him in a UFC, instead of in an "In-Action 3" tape. Kimo, incidently, subsequently immdeiately took up the study of...wrestling? Nope. Sambo? Nope. BJJ under Moriera. Go figger.

2 things get easily forgotten in these postings:
1. The Gracies never claimed to be bullet-proof, and even Rorian foretold of the day when the large Americanswill have spent enough time training in the BJJ tricks of the trade, that they would eventually "catch" a Gracie or BJJ rep. And yes, waaaay before the UFC's, the "buzz" in the very-small (then) BJJ world was that the Russians and Shoot-fighters both had some wicked ankle and knee locks. The wiser BJJ-ists picked them up from Sambo and Shoot guys in friendly workouts, while the other guys picked up "mount-fighting" & guard tactics from the BJJ-ers in return. Syncretics are inevitable in the fighting arts, particularly when the "other guy" has something incredible that you do not. Learn it and evolve, or die, no?

2. The guys in the 1st UFC's were not the 1st or only of their kind to face the Gracies. Yes, some were selected for "star" or "draw" power, over records...Davies, after all, wanted to make money. Some, however, were just next in line for the Challenge. If you think the Gracies shied away from grapplers, get off your butt, and go to the Gracie academy in Torrance. Rorion video-taped challenge matches, so guys couldn't come back later and say they won, when in fact they did not. An academy rep could simply plug in the video and ask, "where?". In the hundreds (yes, as in many hundreds, not just one or two) of video-taped challenge matches, there are some notables that show up to fight, train, explore. All meet the same fate, sooner or later, in one way or another. Some guys more famous than Jennum took challenge matches, and have since signed up for lessons, including Norris and Seagal (not that Seagal counts, but for the record...many idjits in the US consider him a bada$$ since he's so well vested in his own confidence)

As I mentioned, syncretics are inevitable. Memory weakens with time (and boxing), but (I believe) slightly before the UFC's were in season, Judo Gene LaBelle had a grappling party every Saturday at his house in Frazier Park, CA. Each session had guys from his stable, along with one or more of the Machado brothers and thier protoge's, as well as guys from Shoot and Sambo. Do you suppose it's possible they were exchanging notes, training each others' material?

Just some grist for the mill.

Dr. Dave

There was no sambo guys in Gracies in Action 2, nor was there a wrestling guy. There was that one dude, Russki as you call him but I heard he has a different name. He grew up in Germany, I believe and boxed and did some basic grappling. He did not have any titles although he was called a champion boxer by Rorion. Compare that to Rickson who was bjj world champion at that time. Rorion also exagerates the accomplishments of the fighters. Calling them champions and everything even though some had never foght before and did not have much of a competetion experience. Know what the Gracies call those people in Brazil when there is no documentary being taped? Clowns with little fighting experience. Ricksons NHB matches were also against lame people. Zulu was a big guy who gained a fighting record of beating up fat tourists. Also like I said before Rorion tried his best to keep that Russian wrestler from entering the UFC and because he was the matchmaker he succeeded. He tried to do the same with Oleg but since he was the matchmaker no longer he couldn't do it. Kimo did run to BJJ after he lost. Severn went to judo and sambo. Shamrock just studied some gi chokes so he wouldn't be suprised. I also do not like how the Gracies claim everyone does BJJ in mma and that BJJ is the Ultimate Grappling art. Plenty of people do not do BJJ. Fedor, Vochancyn, that sambo dude that beat Almedia, and just about every fighter out of the Soviet Union does other grappling arts. From what I know there are no bjj schools in the former soviet union countries(correct me if I am wrong about that). They didn't learn bjj to beat bjj people like the Gracies said they needed. This may be out of the topic a bit but whats with Rickson's record? 400-0. I doubt it even Helio says it is a bunch of b.s.(Helio is awesome). Also Rickson lost to Tripp in a sambo tournament so he has one lost.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Not to be combative, but again...if you have any doubts, visit the academy. I don't know about now, because I haven't been there in many years. But they used to be quite friendly to inquiring minds...Rorion would even go out of his way to make smoothies for guys who came by to take the challenge match. I know there have been years of political and financial crapola since I was last there, but if they have held form at all, I'm sure you could expect them to be absolute gentleman, and probably even be glad to spar with you just for the experience of rolling with another body.

I've heard Rorion has grown a bit defensive/grumpy with the passage of events, but I also know him to be a person who responds like in kind...if you pay them a respectful visit as an explorer and factfinder, without a chip on your shoulder, he would likely be more than happy to have this conversation with you himself. I've only seen him terse with those who barge in the door, instead of knock; or cast aspersions from a distance, instead of asking him man to man. (and keep in mind as I say this...I'm not a big fan of Rorions business tactics and control-freakisms.)

There have been many excellent Russian competitors in the NHB events. I assure you that if you watch pre-NHB explosion sambo & BJJ and post explosion sambo & BJJ, it will become painfully obvious that each now borrows from the other...even if they are too nationalistically proud to admit it.

D.

PS -- If the Russians credentials are overblown, it's because he over blew them in origin. I was there that evening. I was also there about an hour after DeLucia popped Royce in the eye. I was also there when, after quitting b/c getting winded from Kimo, Helio called Rickson back to Torrance to pants Royce repetitively to improve his grappling so that such a close call wouldn't happen again, and several of the brothers gathered round to tag team, because the family name was in so much question. Yells of painful submission from the "privates" room back in the day when the academy only took the bottom floor. Was there for a couple of challenge matches pre-UFC, and remember how the guys presented themselves for the matches. It wasn't Rorian blowing things out of proportion for effect...lotsa self-proclaimed champs & masters in the world.

As for the Ricksons record thing, there's a thread on that in the grappling forum, for the looking.

 

[RMACKD]

I have already visited the academy a long time ago. I am a blue belt in bjj myself. I do remember inquiring about him picking easy fighters and he gave some kind of mixed answer. But there was some info from Art Davie in the book No-Holds -Barred-Evolution about how he refused to get some fighters that were real touph and Severn and Jackson agree. I do not doubt BJJ the art. I don't believe it is the best groundfighting art, its tied with sambo and kosen judo, but its defenitely valuable for sport groundfighting. Does have holes but the Gracies were concerned on creating an art for good ground not for other ranges.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

This is true. The context for evolution in the art over the previous 50 years was primarily to respond to stand-up fighters by pulling them to the floor where their tools were useless. But as you point out, they are not the only ground game on the globe.

Had fun in a "good-guy/bad-guy" drill with the boxing gloves at the academy one night with some GJJ guys who could generally own my ****. Boxing gloves on, try to keep the grappler from shooting on you. Was meant to give some live play to clean up shoots while avoiding taking shots full-on. One of the group -- an old kickboxer -- figgered out that, if he lowered his weight and delivered boxing combos from waist high instead of shoulder height, he could keep even the teacher(s) at bay while sliding away from the take-down. Those of us with previous backgrounds took note, much to the chagrin of the dyed-in-the-wool clinchers.

Still, I'd rather know it than not. Goes to that whole "being a rounded practitioner" thing that lifers like to aim for. I agree: Not the end all, beat all...but a whole lotta fun to pull on someone with little or no grappling experience, and a lotta stand-up trophies.

D.

 

[Shogun]

Still, I'd rather know it than not.

Exactly. The truth is, what can it hurt, right? even if you dont like it, its good to know it. I went to a BJJ school a couple times just to pick up a few things, and I regularly spar with BJJ guys in my free time. I left the school after the teacher was unable to admit that I held my own against some of his students. too bad. there is other schools in my area though. right now I am looking into Shuai Jiao.

anyway, back to the subject.

 

[ace]

Im not in this to Shout at anyone.

There are Sambo Wrestlers Who Have Beat BJJ Guy's
Such as Igor over Sperry & As I recall Renzo Gracie Beat Oleg.
(BJJ Vs Sombo)

I remeber reading an Artical With Oleg & He stated
That When he Went to The Gracie School He was not able
to Tap out The Jiu Jitsu Guy's By Choke But
Felt he could get them with Leg Locks But did not cause he
did not wish to hurt anyone.

He offerd to Teach Leg Locks for Lessons in Jiu Jitsu
But was turned Down & asked to come back
When He had Money.

He Then Went to Dalls & Met Guy Mezger.

Being a Fighter I have to say anyone can be beaten.



Just a Note I am & alway's will be a Fan of Oleg
His Heart is Huge.

 

[RMACKD]

The question here is not wether sambo or bjj are better but how much of the UFC Rorion set up. The main evidence is that he would not let a Russian wrestler dude(forgot his name) in the UFC after Mark Schultz lasted 30 minutes with Rickson. Other reasons may have been because Russia also had NHB events and he had access to good sambo schools to learn submissions. For the off the topic stuff people have been talking about, there has been sambo dudes that beat bjj guys. Actually the San Frasisco BJJ open was won by a pure sambo practicioner. There are also sambo victories over bjj guys, like Fedor beat many bjj guys, Almeida was beat by a sambo person in the UFC, Sperry got beat by a sambo dude. There has also been victories against sambo guys like Renzo vs Taktarov(believe that was lucky though) and a few other things. In pure sport groundfighting they are even. If you allow throws, strikes and self defense stuff I believe sambo has a advantage but that off-topic.

 

[ace]

Mark Shultz Trains With Rickson Gracie & Pedro Sauer
Shultz Did Fight in UFC 9 & beat Gary Goodrich
He Would Fight Some Years later & loose to Leopoldo Montengro.
......................................................................................
Also Art Davie handeld most of the Match Making
Not Rorion...

Rorion for sure Set the stage for Royce
But U can Never say Who's going to Win in a Fight.

I've also been told That Royce was sapose to Fight Gerrard
1st But When Rorion heard of his Rep. in Japan

Traded up with Teli.... & Jimerson
I got this info From Kevin Roseir who was not only at
The 1st UFC but was in it...

He even Gave Me a Sweet Pic Of Him, Ken Shamrock(My all Time Fav. Fighter)
Gerard ,Art & some other Guy Who I do not know his Name.

 

[RMACKD]

I heard about that too. Gordeu had a lot of attention from the Japanese press. Rorion asked a guy why everyone was surronding him and the person said something like "He is a very good fighter and has fought many times in Japan" Then the brackets were changed and Gordeu's only chance to fight Royce was in the finals. Here is a quote from No Holds Barred Evolution about the wrestler Rorion wouldn't let in. "Karlein was a Russian wrestler with superhuman strength and a long list record setting titles to his credit. He became known as "The Experiment," but after wrestler Mark Schultz lasted 30 minutes wrestling with Rickson, Rorion would not allow either in the show." That a quote from Davie in the book No Holds Barred Evolution. Great read.

 

[JDenz]

All of the first UFC in the sense that he set up the brackets. I think it is unfair to say that there was no good groundfighters in the first UFC. Shamrock was pretty good also in two Remco Pardoue was good. Of course the UFC was about making a name for GJJ. That was his vision for UFC.

 

[ace]

All of the first UFC in the sense that he set up the brackets. I think it is unfair to say that there was no good groundfighters in the first UFC. Shamrock was pretty good also in two Remco Pardoue was good. Of course the UFC was about making a name for GJJ. That was his vision for UFC.

Great Point Jeff also in UFC 1 in a Non Telivised
Fight Jason Deluca Took The other Fighter to The Ground
Got His Back & sunk in a Rear Naked Choke.

 

[punisher73]

One of the group -- an old kickboxer -- figgered out that, if he lowered his weight and delivered boxing combos from waist high instead of shoulder height, he could keep even the teacher(s) at bay while sliding away from the take-down
---------------

This piqued my interest. Did he lower it as the shoot occured or did he keep a lower posture throughout? Also did he angle off as he dropped? Or just drop a foot straight back?

Thanks

 

[jdam76]

I'm sure that Rorion had a lot to do with how the first UFC's went, but that shouldnt take away from the Gracies and they're accomplishments. 15 years ago very few MA's had ever heard of grappling (BJJ, Sambo, Greco-roman etc...) let alone put it into there daily training program. Look at the Sabaki tournaments back in the day. It will be interesting to see how the MA's evolves in the next 15 years.

The only person who can really talk crap about the Gracies would have to be Sakuraba. He has beaten four of them afterall.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to butt in, but I am really fascinated by this thread. For years I have been reading snippetts here and there that the Gracies fought "selected opponents"; and rumors that everytime a Gracie loses or a Gracie Jiu-jitsu instructor (blue belt and black belts) lose its because of a bad call or some sort of referee discrepancy.

I just want to share an opinon on this subject by Jon Bluming from an interview in realfighting.com:

QUESTION:

"What do you [Bluming] think of the Gracies?"

BLUMING:

"You know, I admire Gracie, at least the first one, some of the other ones, I don't know, they are big mouths. I saw one last February fighting at Rings, and he was just a big show off, and he caught a low kick so hard that both legs came from the floor and he banged his head. Everytime they try to rush forward and grab your legs, but you know what's funny about it, they [the Gracies] know as soon as they grab your leg, there's always one leg on the tatami. Once that happens, you are not allowed to hit him. If I would fight a guy like that, I would tell him, look, even at my age, I like to fight you, but no rules! So more ******** [sic] with one leg on the ground, and I'm not allowed to hit you, so once he comes in then, I will punch so hard, or a shuto so hard, it will break his ****ing [sic] neck. But you're not allowed to do that."

"One of my best students, Gilbert Eifel, he fought one of the wrestlers who was light heavyweight champion from Sydney, and fought at that same tournament in February last year in Rings in Tokyo, and he jumped forward and gripped the legs of the big Negro Eifel, and Eifel just elbowed him, Bang, and he nearly killed him, right between the shoulders, wap! But he was almost disqualified, he lost three points, he lost the goddam shiai, and he lost the title, it cost him $200K."

"And that's what I mean phony, and this wrestler didn't do anything, not an armlock, not a leg lock, absolutely nothing except jumping forward, grip with both hands, one leg or two legs, and nothing happened, not a throw, punch or kick, and he won $200K by decision."

QUESTION:

"So they're [Gracies] training to beat the rules, that's it?"

BLUMING:

"Right, right, and Gracie, the first Gracie, he claimed no one could beat him, then Dolman, my student who was the first 'real' unofficial world champion beat everybody, the Russians, Ukranians, an American I don't know, he beat the piss [sic] out of them, really bad, and he said I want to fight with our friend Gracie, he wrote him a registered letter and never received an answer. That was in '93, and then came the ******** [sic] story, well you can always come to my dojo and fight me, they won't fight you in the dojo, but in the arena, so they can make another $100K."

"All the fight organizations in Japan are run by gangsters, the top Yakuza, everybody knows that."

Source: http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm