How much did Rorion of the UFC did Rorion set up?

[ace]

I'm sure that Rorion had a lot to do with how the first UFC's went, but that shouldnt take away from the Gracies and they're accomplishments. 15 years ago very few MA's had ever heard of grappling (BJJ, Sambo, Greco-roman etc...) let alone put it into there daily training program. Look at the Sabaki tournaments back in the day. It will be interesting to see how the MA's evolves in the next 15 years.

The only person who can really talk crap about the Gracies would have to be Sakuraba. He has beaten four of them afterall.

I think Most of The Gracies a Fantstic Fighters,

Sak has beat 4 of Them But he is not he only one to beat a Gracie

Royler has lost to Sak, Genki Sudo,Eddie Bravo & Marrio Sperry

Renzo who is one of the most Impressive has Lost to
Sak , Dan Henderson, Carlos Newton, Kiyoshi Tamura & Shung Oyama

Royce has Lost to Sak, Wallid Ismail

Ryan has lost to Sak & Tomki

Helio to Valdamar Santana & Kimura

I could go on But I don't think I need to There is No dout The
Gracie are A Great aset To Martal Arts But Like The Rest of us
They are Human

 

[ace]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to butt in, but I am really fascinated by this thread. For years I have been reading snippetts here and there that the Gracies fought "selected opponents"; and rumors that everytime a Gracie loses or a Gracie Jiu-jitsu instructor (blue belt and black belts) lose its because of a bad call or some sort of referee discrepancy.

I just want to share an opinon on this subject by Jon Bluming from an interview in realfighting.com:

QUESTION:

"What do you [Bluming] think of the Gracies?"

BLUMING:

"You know, I admire Gracie, at least the first one, some of the other ones, I don't know, they are big mouths. I saw one last February fighting at Rings, and he was just a big show off, and he caught a low kick so hard that both legs came from the floor and he banged his head. Everytime they try to rush forward and grab your legs, but you know what's funny about it, they [the Gracies] know as soon as they grab your leg, there's always one leg on the tatami. Once that happens, you are not allowed to hit him. If I would fight a guy like that, I would tell him, look, even at my age, I like to fight you, but no rules! So more ******** [sic] with one leg on the ground, and I'm not allowed to hit you, so once he comes in then, I will punch so hard, or a shuto so hard, it will break his ****ing [sic] neck. But you're not allowed to do that."

"One of my best students, Gilbert Eifel, he fought one of the wrestlers who was light heavyweight champion from Sydney, and fought at that same tournament in February last year in Rings in Tokyo, and he jumped forward and gripped the legs of the big Negro Eifel, and Eifel just elbowed him, Bang, and he nearly killed him, right between the shoulders, wap! But he was almost disqualified, he lost three points, he lost the goddam shiai, and he lost the title, it cost him $200K."

"And that's what I mean phony, and this wrestler didn't do anything, not an armlock, not a leg lock, absolutely nothing except jumping forward, grip with both hands, one leg or two legs, and nothing happened, not a throw, punch or kick, and he won $200K by decision."

QUESTION:

"So they're [Gracies] training to beat the rules, that's it?"

BLUMING:

"Right, right, and Gracie, the first Gracie, he claimed no one could beat him, then Dolman, my student who was the first 'real' unofficial world champion beat everybody, the Russians, Ukranians, an American I don't know, he beat the piss [sic] out of them, really bad, and he said I want to fight with our friend Gracie, he wrote him a registered letter and never received an answer. That was in '93, and then came the ******** [sic] story, well you can always come to my dojo and fight me, they won't fight you in the dojo, but in the arena, so they can make another $100K."

"All the fight organizations in Japan are run by gangsters, the top Yakuza, everybody knows that."

Source: http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm

The Gracie Spoken of here is Renzo.
To my knowledge he is the only one who has competed in Rings.
Also He did not Create The Rules.

As for Giber Yvel he is a Devastating Kickboxer
But has not done well against Grapplers & his Frustration
Has shown.

 

[jdam76]

youre right Ace. Sometimes I think people do forget that they're human. Any way you cut it, what the Gracies have done for the MA world is phenomenal. I also think its a compliment when you can count all the fighters theyve lost to on your fingers considering how many fights they all have between them. I'd say they're winning percentage is pretty damn good.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

The Gracie Spoken of here is Renzo.

Also He did not Create The Rules.

Hi Ace,

Yes, that is true, Renzo did not create the rules, but neither did any other competitor. What was brought out and seemed to be mutually agreed upon in Jon Bluming's interview, was that the Gracies practice to beat the rules; plus they shy away from any competitors who have a good chance of beating them, including competitors trained by Bluman's dojo in Holland.

 

[ace]

The Gracie Spoken of here is Renzo.

Also He did not Create The Rules.

Hi Ace,

Yes, that is true, Renzo did not create the rules, but neither did any other competitor. What was brought out and seemed to be mutually agreed upon in Jon Bluming's interview, was that the Gracies practice to beat the rules; plus they shy away from any competitors who have a good chance of beating them, including competitors trained by Bluman's dojo in Holland.

Don't know Whos duckin Who May be True.

Being a Mixed Martial Arts Fighter, U have to train
for the Rules of The Event U are going to Fight in.

There are somany organizations out there &
Everyone has a different set. Holland for Ex. Only allow
Fighters 1 - 2 Mins on The Ground & Then They Stand U up.
Bas Rutten has said This on a few Pride Events.

Also Promoters Make Fights Not Fighters.
There are alot of Fighters That Would Love to Fight Each
other But with out a Promter to Back it The Fights don't Happen.

Also Lets Not forget $$$$$ is alway's a Problem
Every Fighter Wants it But If a Fight won't draw a Crowed
it's hard to make it happen.

 

[JDenz]

Renzo has never been accused of ducking people by anyone. Him and Royler and most of the Carlos guys will fight anyone, there are a few who duck guys but not Renzo. The guy that violated the rulkes would make any competitor made. Part of training for an event is training by those rules, If you can't compete in the rules in the event then compete in MMA.

 

[ace]

Renzo has never been accused of ducking people by anyone. Him and Royler and most of the Carlos guys will fight anyone, there are a few who duck guys but not Renzo. The guy that violated the rulkes would make any competitor made. Part of training for an event is training by those rules, If you can't compete in the rules in the event then compete in MMA.

Very well said....

I Agree with this 100%

 

[SammyB57]

I wonder what it would have been like if Olympic Wrestlers, Judoka, and Tae Kwon Do artists had been in the UFC. That seems to me like a much purer competition with the undisputed best of every art competing. Throw in a Muay Thai champion and a U.S. boxing champion.... you're set.

Or we could just find some out of luck 35 year old karate guy that no one has ever heard of.....

 

[JDenz]

Everything would have been the same if you had top level guys in there rmemeber Royce was not the best BJJ guy either. NO one was exposed to the ground game so it would have been the same. Maybe the Judo guy might win maybe.

 

[SammyB57]

Well, you have to remember what happened when Dan Severn, a then UNKNOWN wrestler got in the cage with Royce. What if it had been Alexander Karelin from Russia, a total bad @$$ olympic greco-roman wrestler champ? What if it had been Yoshida who was an Olympic Judo champ? And anti-TKD arguments would be more legitimate if they had gotten beat down in the cage.... saying TKD doesn't work because some 35 year old beat-down karate fighter lost in the cage isn't really well.... yeah.

 

[ace]

Well, you have to remember what happened when Dan Severn, a then UNKNOWN wrestler got in the cage with Royce. What if it had been Alexander Karelin from Russia, a total bad @$$ olympic greco-roman wrestler champ? What if it had been Yoshida who was an Olympic Judo champ? And anti-TKD arguments would be more legitimate if they had gotten beat down in the cage.... saying TKD doesn't work because some 35 year old beat-down karate fighter lost in the cage isn't really well.... yeah.

Dan May have been un know to the American TV.
But he had a Back round in Sambo as well as several Years in
The UWFI. he crossed Paths With Nobhiko Takada as Well
as Sakuraba & Tamura.....

Art Davie Tried to get Karlin for the UFC
it was said that Davie wanted Karlin to Fight Rickson.
To my knowledge Karlin never Excepted & Rickson out Priced him self

Art Never realy Wanted Royce to be in the UFC
he wanted Rickson. But Rorion & Rickson Were not all
That Tight & it was Rorion who Chose Royce.

 

[JDenz]

all that happened was Dan took him down and could not do any damage to Royce. Wrestlers learned that to beat JJ guys they had to learn to try and pass the guard, or at least how to free up there hands to punch. Any other wrestler would have the same problem. Yoshida would have been okay because at least he could deal with the submission attempts.

 

[ace]

all that happened was Dan took him down and could not do any damage to Royce. Wrestlers learned that to beat JJ guys they had to learn to try and pass the guard, or at least how to free up there hands to punch. Any other wrestler would have the same problem. Yoshida would have been okay because at least he could deal with the submission attempts.

I agree with This. There are othere Judoka
Who would have done well, Such names as Naoya Ogawa
Who has done well In Pride Event with a Record of 7 -1.

I think there is no dout Rorion new what he want
from the event. He did not polute the Arean with non Talent
tho Ken Shamrock , Patrick Smith & Gerard Gordeau were Fine Fighters in
there Respective Martial Arts. The UFC forced Martial Artist to
Start Learning again.

 

[peligro1]

I'm sure it was set up. But that was the point. To set up an event that showcased not who the best fighter was, but what type of martial art would prevail in a NHB. The Gracie's wanted to show stand-up traditionalists that ground-fighting was being introduced to the mainstream.

The lesson to be learned from the first UFC's was not that a grappler will always beat a striker, but that a grappler will always beat a striker if the striker knows no grappling.

This is why every single successful NHB fighter today must know how to apply and incorporate some type of ground work into their training.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I have heard that both UFC 1,2,3 and Pride 1,2 were basically ways to expose BJJ to the world, and at times, rigged. Good marketing plan I must say. The fact that no high ranked Judo, Sambo, Japanese Jujutsu, or any other style of grappling shows something. Many people are under the impression that BJJ was the first art to have extensive grappling. this is far from the truth. Judo (the forerunner of BJJ) contains a fair amount of grappling. Sambo (as mentioned) has a great ground game, coming from Judo and wrestling. Rorion could have left out good grapplers so Royce didnt have any problem. I am wondering how they chose some of the contestants....? (Scott Morrris, Steve Jennum, Jason Delucia, etc) those people werent really doing anything beforehand. (well, Jason did fight in bareknuckle in Japan a couple times)

True, UFC didn't invent NHB/MMA fighting. There were guys doing this long before UFC. Guys like Marco Ruas among others. So, i'd say that the Gracie's did set up the card a little to show case Gracie BJJ. Of course, so what, it made it's point, and the sport evolved. If the Gracies wanted a little noteriety and profit in the process, more power to them. They brought us the UFC, they deserved a little from it.

 

[captnigh]

Great thread, really enjoyable read.
It seems like anything, this situation isn't black and white. I'm sure Rorion exercised strategy in the first UFC shows so that BJJ would come across as a dominant force in the fight world. But ultimately I think because of that, some very positive things have happened. Fighters have put pressure on themselves to become more well-rounded, and this has made the sport more exciting.
Again - great thread!